D&D 5E Behind the design of 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons: Well my impression as least.

[Sacrosanct]

AD&D clerics typically had 3 spells at 1st level (1 from level plus 2 from WIS of 14+). This is from 1978 (PHB), so within the first 5 years of the game.

AD&D also had rules for healing damage via non-magical proficiency checks (in the Wilderness Survival Guide, and then in the AD&D 2nd ed PHB). So there was non-magical healing. (And of course there were rules for healing via resting also.)

AD&D wasn't the only D&D, and I wasn't just talking about that. In B/X and BECMI, clerics didn't get a spell at 1st level. And seeing as how BECMI was the best selling version of D&D to date, I think it's pretty fair to use it as an example. If you're going to consider that healing in early D&D (even AD&D) was "easy" (the claim that I was disputing), then I'd wonder what you'd consider it to be in modern D&D?

 

[Sacrosanct]

I think I'm beginning to see how 4e came along. If you've got this group of people who think D&D is all about combat and pretty much nothing else, no wonder a version of D&D was created that was focused solely on tactical combat and little else.

This is not an edition warring statement, but an observation that time spent in actual gameplay for the typical group, 4e was almost all about the combat encounter. I.e., gamers could spend 90% of their gaming session time on something combat related as the norm. That is not a statement of disparagement on 4e, because it's neither endorsing that as a good thing, or making a judgement that it's a bad thing. Nor is it a statement that people wouldn't be able to play 4e without combat. Just that for the typical group, more of the session time was focused on combat than any previous edition.

*Edit

As an example, let's compare the most combat orientated class: the fighter.

In 4e, the class description and benefits are literally all about combat. In AD&D, half of the fighter's descriptions and one of the key benefits has nothing to do with fighting at all. It's about land and keep management, and the benefits the fighter gets in those.

 

[Nebulous]

I think I'm beginning to see how 4e came along. If you've got this group of people who think D&D is all about combat and pretty much nothing else, no wonder a version of D&D was created that was focused solely on tactical combat and little else.

That is NOT what people are saying. No one here has said "D&D is about combat and pretty much nothing else." It has been said that D&D favors combat over other avenues of encounter interaction. If 51% of your encounters end in combat, then your game favors combat too.

And 4e largely came about because of the billions of dollars sunk into online computer games and card games that the corporate bigwigs wanted to tap into.

 

[the Jester]

This attempt by you and a few others to paint D&D as other than a combat-focused game is an attempt at an incredulous argument for reasons I can't comprehend. Pulling pages from the DMG for handling social interactions could be easily be countered by all the combat rules, text and magical combat spells that exists in the game.

Perhaps it's because not all games are the same and experiences differ.

Haven't you ever heard of, even if you've never played in, games where the dice come out once or twice a session or even less?

I don't think anyone is disputing your experience. Nobody is saying "No one plays heavy combat D&D", but you seem to be saying that "Everyone plays light combat D&D". That's simply incorrect.

 

[Sacrosanct]

That is NOT what people are saying. No one here has said "D&D is about combat and pretty much nothing else." It has been said that D&D favors combat over other avenues of encounter interaction. If 51% of your encounters end in combat, then your game favors combat too.

.

Yeah, people are saying that. Notably Hussar and Celtavian. They've made statements that the only way to advance is through combat, that since "the vast majority of modules are combat, D&D is all about combat", and a bunch of other weird arguments. Like the "STR is the first listed stat on the char sheet so that's proof the game is mostly about combat." They are most certainly not implying that they're only talking about 51%, but have used phrases like "vast majority". So unless "vast" means something new now, people have made those arguments.

 

[aramis erak]

Yeah, people are saying that. Notably Hussar and Celtavian. They've made statements that the only way to advance is through combat, that since "the vast majority of modules are combat, D&D is all about combat", and a bunch of other weird arguments. Like the "STR is the first listed stat on the char sheet so that's proof the game is mostly about combat." They are most certainly not implying that they're only talking about 51%, but have used phrases like "vast majority". So unless "vast" means something new now, people have made those arguments.

It's very easy to stack the situations such that combat is nigh-inevitable under AD&D or BECMI.

• A number of monsters have hatreds and attack on sight their "traditional enemies"... automatic "2" reactions.
• It was fair game to make initial reactions upon the first one through the door or the one with the lowest charisma present at the encounter; lots of people used Cha as the dump stat.
• It was the case in a number of modules that certain groups of monsters attacked on sight, even tho' the monster type in question didn't have an auto-attack statement in the MM.
• It was not terribly uncommon for a DM to make the costs of successful parlay fairly high. Many of those DM's also made treasure experience based upon the difference of what you had going in and coming out of the dungeon. Therefore, if a monster is worth 20xp, but it costs you 25gp to parlay him out of your way, that's a 5xp deficit in the long run.
• Not a few DM's required parlay to include a successful Cha test of some form; either an attribute test, a general skill test (BECMI, BX+Gazeteer) or less or a non-weapon proficiency test (AD&D). Some modified it for RP...

Essentially, when 1/4 to 2/3 of parlays failed, and playing a parlay was 5min, but the combat was 20min or more, combat eats most of the time.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

And still it is not only combat that matters. And even if combat is inevitable sometimes, non-combat skills and character play usually determines under which conditions you fight.
If you use charisma as a dump stat and npcs react poorly to your character, it is not the game´s fault, but your own.

Combat is fun, yes, but "balance" can´t ever be achieved, and does not have to at all. What does it matter if someone does more damage as someone else. And 5e is pretty well balance wise... as much as I can tell right now... but 3.x was not that bad either when noone tried to powergame without concern for character play...

 

[billd91]

Dude, go look at early edition (say, 1e) player's rulebook. Count the pages of things that are largely about combat. Count the pages of things that are not.

The former number *will* be higher than the latter.

How, then can you say it is incorrect that the presentation of the game was heavily focused on combat. He didn't say "solely" focused. Just "heavily". If more than half the pages deal with combat, combat-relevant stats, spells, and gear, how do you get it *not* heavily focused on combat?

Read carefully. He's not saying that there aren't non-combat things do do. Just that the way the game was presented focused heavily on combat.

That's actually a terrible metric. Combat may need more page space to adjudicate fairly because the stakes are so high without requiring the conclusion that's what the game is heavily focused on.

 

[DaveDash]

There was one paragraph in the DMG for experience out of combat.
I'm a bit disappointed they didn't put more work into experience and encounters in general (especially when it comes to traps and complex traps). Even 3e had good solid rules around this instead of just 'making it up'.

Comes back to my earlier point about this edition is not as time friendly as I thought to time poor DMs.

 

[Mercule]

Like the "STR is the first listed stat on the char sheet so that's proof the game is mostly about combat."

Yeah, but the second ability listed is INT*, so problem solving and dealing with riddles is obviously almost as important.

* If you want to go to original intent and/or subconscious design, might as well go back to original design.