D&D 5E Ok all, I just cannot wrap my head around how combat works. Please Help.

[Grainger]

Actually, thinking about this some more, I really don't agree with the "make them learn the maths before they play" school of thought. Players learn how the attack/damage rolls break down when they do character creation for the first time - that's when you quickly see what affects the roll, and that's when it's relevant information.

Sure, it could be broken down before this, but why? The player can already clearly see which weapons he/she is better at. How these figures were derived is (in the vast majority of situations) immaterial in play. I don't class this as "need to know" for newcomers. It's really only relevant in character design. If the player wants to consider picking up a new weapon - that's what we have DMs (and rule books) for - the DM explains what their to-hit and damage would be, or the players look it up, as they might do with other rules for situations they haven't encountered yet.

This all smacks of getting people to look under the hood because you personally like tinkering with engines. Personally, I have no clue how my car works, and I'm happy for this situation to stay that way*. I know how computers work, but I don't think that everyone should learn to assemble a PC before they surf the internet.

Going back to D&D, where does it stop, anyway? You can keep drilling down with "why" questions ad infinitum. Why is there a strength bonus? How is the strength score generated? Why are there six ability scores? Et cetera et cetera. At some point, when teaching the game, you need to draw a line, and I think they drew it in a pretty sensible place. The information is there if and when players need to know it, but there's a finite amount they can absorb at one time, and I think the rules do an excellent job of distilling what is a very complex game (from the point of view of most people) into a very approachable one. The deeper information is there as and when players need it.






*Actually, I just learned how a car engine works. Interesting! However, I didn't need to know in order to drive one.

 

[wedgeski]

I hate going off-topic, but I wonder which games you find strange? I admit, I haven't watched any of S3, but scanning the list here, I don't see anything too unusual, aside perhaps for Cards Against Humanity. A lot of light games, co-ops, and fluffy fillers, as per usual. I'm really looking forward to the Dread episode, though. The Fiasco episodes from last season were great.

Example: I found the Tokaido episode very hard to follow/enjoy. Not sure that was a good choice of game for the series, but I know the producers agonize over which games will work "on TV" and I certainly give them due credit for trying!

 

[painted_klown]

Reading this thread got me thinking back on my own experiences with novice gamers. I have often seen this same tendency to make things way more complicated than they need to be, and that has brought me to a revelation.

We're apt to think of "prefab" statblocks (where attack bonus, damage values, and so forth are all pre-calculated and presented in their final form) as ideal for newbie players and DMs. Veteran gamers want the complicated details of how all that stuff is computed; newbies need to be shielded from the nitty gritty.

But this is exactly backward! Newbies are the ones who need to have the process explained in detail. They need to be able to see where the numbers are coming from. We veterans, on the other hand, can look at a statblock that says "Longsword: +7 to hit, 1d8+4 damage," scan down to the ability scores for Strength 16 and the equipment list for a +1 longsword, and break it down into "+3 Strength mod, +1 enhancement, +3 proficiency bonus." For us, it's convenient to have everything presented in a minimalist form. Give us the final numbers, and we'll reverse-engineer the details on the rare occasions that we need them. The rest of the time, we'll just roll to hit and damage and carry on.

I suspect the main reason we get it wrong is impatience on the part of veterans. We watch a new player carefully check which stat to use for an attack, add that stat mod to the d20 roll and then pause to look up his proficiency bonus, and then do it all over again for the second attack, and wish he'd just tot up his total attack bonus, write it in big numbers on his character sheet like everyone else does, and quit wasting everyone's time. What we have to remember is that the newbie is learning as well as playing. Reading the rules is no substitute for using them at the table. Once the newbie gets a handle on how everything fits together, he can start taking shortcuts.

A big +1 to all of this.

As a new player, this is exactly what I am thinking. New players need to know how to do the math. Looking at the completed pre-gen character sheets is nice, but when you don't know how the numbers written on them were reached, it's a bit of a challenge to decipher all of it.

 

[Grainger]

A big +1 to all of this.

As a new player, this is exactly what I am thinking. New players need to know how to do the math. Looking at the completed pre-gen character sheets is nice, but when you don't know how the numbers written on them were reached, it's a bit of a challenge to decipher all of it.

I'm genuinely interested to know what you didn't understand about playing the game. Sure, when creating a character (or levelling up at level 4) you need to know what the stats mean, but I can't see what you would be missing before then - surely you can see which characters are best at which tasks from the actual stats? Anyway, I'd be interested to hear one or two specific examples.

 

[painted_klown]

I'm genuinely interested to know what you didn't understand about playing the game. Sure, when creating a character (or levelling up at level 4) you need to know what the stats mean, but I can't see what you would be missing before then - surely you can see which characters are best at which tasks from the actual stats? Anyway, I'd be interested to hear one or two specific examples.

We haven't actually played yet. I was trying to learn character creation from reading the rules and using the pre-gen characters as a guideline of sorts.

Some specific things that threw me off were the way the numbers were written in for the attack roll and damage roll. I couldn't figure out how they were coming to the conclusions they did, or what to add to where. All of this confusion has been cleared up ITT already. Another thing was passive perception, but I figured that out from a youtube video. I also had questions about combat, but those too have been cleared up ITT.

Once I realized the pre-gen sheets were designed so the players could roll the die and add a single #, it made a lot more sense. It will be easy for me to explain to the PCs how combat works using the pre-gens, to be sure. But with the players I will have, they will all want to know how to get to that #, instead of being told "Use this and don't ask questions as to why, because we don't want to tell you". That's not intellectually satisfying at all, and nobody wants to feel like their being told "I would explain it, but you're too stupid to understand". The group of players I have are all really smart people, they WILL want to know what everything means, and how to get to the same conclusions.

Playing without knowing will feel like you're going through the motions without knowing why. I wouldn't be happy with that, and knowing my players, they wouldn't either. In fact, they are excited to create their own characters, more than wanting to use the pre-gen ones. They are going to want to know the answers to these types of questions, and as the DM, I feel it's my job to know how to answer them.

Perhaps contrary to popular belief, most people don't want "dumbed down/watered down" information to get started. They just want a clear explanation as to what the detailed information means.

 

[Grainger]

We haven't actually played yet. I was trying to learn character creation from reading the rules and using the pre-gen characters as a guideline of sorts.

Some specific things that threw me off were the way the numbers were written in for the attack roll and damage roll. I couldn't figure out how they were coming to the conclusions they did, or what to add to where. All of this confusion has been cleared up ITT already. Another thing was passive perception, but I figured that out from a youtube video. I also had questions about combat, but those too have been cleared up ITT.

Once I realized the pre-gen sheets were designed so the players could roll the die and add a single #, it made a lot more sense. It will be easy for me to explain to the PCs how combat works using the pre-gens, to be sure. But with the players I will have, they will all want to know how to get to that #, instead of being told "Use this and don't ask questions as to why, because we don't want to tell you". That's not intellectually satisfying at all, and nobody wants to feel like their being told "I would explain it, but you're too stupid to understand". The group of players I have are all really smart people, they WILL want to know what everything means, and how to get to the same conclusions.

Playing without knowing will feel like you're going through the motions without knowing why. I wouldn't be happy with that, and knowing my players, they wouldn't either. In fact, they are excited to create their own characters, more than wanting to use the pre-gen ones. They are going to want to know the answers to these types of questions, and as the DM, I feel it's my job to know how to answer them.

Perhaps contrary to popular belief, most people don't want "dumbed down/watered down" information to get started. They just want a clear explanation as to what the detailed information means.

Well, you're trying to do character creation, which is a different situation. That information is readible available in the PHB, and in the free Basic rules - maybe it could be improved there, but that's a separate debate.

If your players are technically-minded, that's great, but there's a clear design choice in the Starter Set to allow players to jump in without knowing the character creation part of the rules, and not everyone wants to look "under the hood" (or they do, but not yet - they want to try it first). The FFG Star Wars beginner boxes take a similar approach, and I'm very grateful for that, even though I will eventually look "under the hood" in my own time, and it's worked very well with my players (all highly intelligent people, and seasoned gamers, but with very limited time to learn a new system). We've had a similar experience with D&D (I ran my own adventure, but the players used the starter box characters).

Without having access to market research data, we're reduced to saying "I think most people like the technical detail up-front" and "I think they don't". I wonder if Wizards (or FFG) did any such research? Either way, the information is there for people who want it, but doesn't clutter the starter set for everyone else - an ideal solution in my opinion.

 

[marcelos]

We haven't actually played yet. I was trying to learn character creation from reading the rules and using the pre-gen characters as a guideline of sorts.

Some specific things that threw me off were the way the numbers were written in for the attack roll and damage roll. I couldn't figure out how they were coming to the conclusions they did, or what to add to where. All of this confusion has been cleared up ITT already. Another thing was passive perception, but I figured that out from a youtube video. I also had questions about combat, but those too have been cleared up ITT.

Once I realized the pre-gen sheets were designed so the players could roll the die and add a single #, it made a lot more sense. It will be easy for me to explain to the PCs how combat works using the pre-gens, to be sure. But with the players I will have, they will all want to know how to get to that #, instead of being told "Use this and don't ask questions as to why, because we don't want to tell you". That's not intellectually satisfying at all, and nobody wants to feel like their being told "I would explain it, but you're too stupid to understand". The group of players I have are all really smart people, they WILL want to know what everything means, and how to get to the same conclusions.

Playing without knowing will feel like you're going through the motions without knowing why. I wouldn't be happy with that, and knowing my players, they wouldn't either. In fact, they are excited to create their own characters, more than wanting to use the pre-gen ones. They are going to want to know the answers to these types of questions, and as the DM, I feel it's my job to know how to answer them.

Perhaps contrary to popular belief, most people don't want "dumbed down/watered down" information to get started. They just want a clear explanation as to what the detailed information means.

Since they are new to the game, and will play Lost Mine of Phandelver, try to dial down the first encounters because they can be deadly to a LVL1 party. Reduce the goblins damage for example, so they can learn how to play without early character deaths.

Also, I suggest you use initiative markers so they know the order at all times. I use a small folded paper for each player, and another of a different color for the enemies. I put the papers on top of the DM screen in the rolled order. I usually have only one initiative for all enemies of the current fight.

In the first fights, go basic: moving, attacking. AS they get experience, introduce other mechanisms like disengage, dodge, attacks of opportunity, grapple.

 

[Dausuul]

Perhaps contrary to popular belief, most people don't want "dumbed down/watered down" information to get started. They just want a clear explanation as to what the detailed information means.

Well said.

D&D by its very nature appeals to people who aren't content with prefab options. Otherwise they'd be playing MMOs, which handle all the math for you and have shiny graphics too. The value of D&D is that it lets you try anything you can imagine; you aren't constrained by what somebody else thunk up. People who find that important enough to put up with all the shortcomings of tabletop gaming (need for a human DM, need to plan in advance instead of just jumping online, glacial pace of combat, lots of arithmetic, no shiny graphics) are not going to be happy with "Just roll the die and add this number and don't worry about it."

 

[Hollow Man]

Perhaps contrary to popular belief, most people don't want "dumbed down/watered down" information to get started. They just want a clear explanation as to what the detailed information means.

It depends. I think the DM needs to know how this stuff works from the get-go so he can be prepared for any kind of player.

I have a player who is technical, and played B/X and AD&D 1e, but nothing else since. I THOUGHT he'd be interesting in understanding the details under the hood for 5e, but he actually wasn't...at least for now. It frustrated him to try to learn all the ins and outs of character creation, especially since things like class features (the "powers" you get as you level), proficiency, skills, and ability checks aren't in 1e. He was much happier to go with a pregen (one of the Starter fighters was close to how he envisioned his character), so he could forget about HOW all those numbers were arrived at, and could instead simply concentrate on the mechanics of how to use them.

Of course everyone is different. The DM has to know his players, and work with them to discover what will be the quickest path to fun.

-HM

 

[wedgeski]

D&D by its very nature appeals to people who aren't content with prefab options. Otherwise they'd be playing MMOs, which handle all the math for you and have shiny graphics too.

Hmm. I wouldn't be so quick to categorise, if I were you! A significant section of the MMO community loves nothing more than to tear apart the math behind a game's systems and eke every advantage out of it that they can. In many ways, they're trying to have the best of both worlds: the closed systems of an MMO, and the pliability of an TRPG.

I think that both communities, even outside the inevitable population crossover, are split along similar lines.