D&D 5E Why is Hoard of the Dragon Queen such a bad adventure?

[the Jester]

How many and what level were the PCs? 3 Gricks would be a morning warmup for our group (even when we were lower level, granted, there are 6 of us).

At the time, the pcs were:

Bard of valor 3
Evoker wizard 3
Warlock 1
Paladin of vengeance 3
Ranger 1


They had no magic items except for a potion of healing. So, as you can imagine, it was a very rough fight, especially as they were already somewhat depleted from dungeoneering. They had a short rest and everyone was at max hps after the slide, but they were short Hit Dice, a few spell slots, etc.

The wizard, paladin and ranger survived the fight with the gricks; the bard and warlock did not. By the end of it, only the wizard was conscious, but IIRC the paladin rolled a 20 on a death save and came back around right after the wizard blew his last spell slot to thunderwave the gricks off the unconscious pcs (munch munch munch). The one on the bard made its save and killed him; the warlock died by failing 3 death saves.

(Again, that's IIRC; it was over two months ago at this point.)

Another factor in the lack of shining for my wizard is that we also have a ranger 2 / evoker 2 in our group. So he walks around in armor (AC 19), attacks with his weapons, and pulls out (mostly) first level evocation spells when necessary. We have a Bard that casts Thunderwave and Sleep. So there is a bit of repetition except for the fact that my wizard has second level spells.

Ah, that makes sense. It is harder to shine when half the party shares your tricks.

 

[Sailor Moon]

At the time, the pcs were:

Bard of valor 3
Evoker wizard 3
Warlock 1
Paladin of vengeance 3
Ranger 1


They had no magic items except for a potion of healing. So, as you can imagine, it was a very rough fight, especially as they were already somewhat depleted from dungeoneering. They had a short rest and everyone was at max hps after the slide, but they were short Hit Dice, a few spell slots, etc.

The wizard, paladin and ranger survived the fight with the gricks; the bard and warlock did not. By the end of it, only the wizard was conscious, but IIRC the paladin rolled a 20 on a death save and came back around right after the wizard blew his last spell slot to thunderwave the gricks off the unconscious pcs (munch munch munch). The one on the bard made its save and killed him; the warlock died by failing 3 death saves.

(Again, that's IIRC; it was over two months ago at this point.)



Ah, that makes sense. It is harder to shine when half the party shares your tricks.

I don't understand your last part.

Since when does being able to shine have to be associated with having a niche ability?

 

[KarinsDad]

Since when does being able to shine have to be associated with having a niche ability?

It's about frequency of shining. If everyone can heal, then nobody shines too often by healing since someone else might beat them to it in a given fight.

If multiple PCs can cast Sleep, then if your Wizard has Sleep and it would allow him to "save the day", a different player can save the day if his PC has a higher initiative.

Wizards are almost exclusively limited to the equivalent of 4E Daily powers (i.e. spell slot spells). Clerics and Bards can wade into battle. Wizards? Not so much (although there are exceptions like Dwarven Wizards). Low level wizards mostly hang back, pinging a few foes with cantrips (possibly bows for Elves) and wait for opportunities for when they can shine with their Daily spells.

Most other classes either have At Will melee or ranged capability or Encounter (i.e. short rest) ones which allow for them to shine more often.

Sure, a specialized non-human Dwarven or Elven wizard might have At Wills stronger than cantrips, but this is not the case for all races.

 

[KarinsDad]

At the time, the pcs were:

Bard of valor 3
Evoker wizard 3
Warlock 1
Paladin of vengeance 3
Ranger 1


They had no magic items except for a potion of healing. So, as you can imagine, it was a very rough fight, especially as they were already somewhat depleted from dungeoneering. They had a short rest and everyone was at max hps after the slide, but they were short Hit Dice, a few spell slots, etc.

The wizard, paladin and ranger survived the fight with the gricks; the bard and warlock did not. By the end of it, only the wizard was conscious, but IIRC the paladin rolled a 20 on a death save and came back around right after the wizard blew his last spell slot to thunderwave the gricks off the unconscious pcs (munch munch munch). The one on the bard made its save and killed him; the warlock died by failing 3 death saves.

(Again, that's IIRC; it was over two months ago at this point.)

Yikes! That would be TPK territory. For all intents and purposes, you have one PC that can move up and engage (the Ranger would possibly go down in a single round against a Grick and probably did). Our group has 3 high AC good hit point PCs for the 3 Gricks. One PC cannot hold off 3 foes.

That is the cool thing about our group. All of the players strive for the highest AC. Five of the PCs had a starting Dex between 14 and 16 (the Fighter had a 12) and 4 of them took Stealth (even the Fighter, +3 to a disadvantaged roll means that he does make it sometimes).

Although 5E is not about roles, our group probably still thinks in those terms. It's the role of the Fighter, Cleric, and Ranger/Wizard to form a line and hold foes off the lower AC PCs. It's the role of the Rogue to be a striker and improve action economy by taking one foe out from the opposition most rounds. It's the role of the Bard to support (with Sleep or Faerie Fire, or a bow shot on a damaged foe, or healing or Bardic Inspiration). It's the role of the Wizard to, well, mostly fire off cantrips and when it makes sense, drop a Web or Fog Cloud or Scorching Ray or whatever. For easy fights, that usually means no spells casts. For moderate fights, sometimes one. For harder fights (which half of our fights are), at least one and sometimes two or more.

 

[Sailor Moon]

It's about frequency of shining. If everyone can heal, then nobody shines too often by healing since someone else might beat them to it in a given fight.

If multiple PCs can cast Sleep, then if your Wizard has Sleep and it would allow him to "save the day", a different player can save the day if his PC has a higher initiative.

Wizards are almost exclusively limited to the equivalent of 4E Daily powers (i.e. spell slot spells). Clerics and Bards can wade into battle. Wizards? Not so much (although there are exceptions like Dwarven Wizards). Low level wizards mostly hang back, pinging a few foes with cantrips (possibly bows for Elves) and wait for opportunities for when they can shine with their Daily spells.

Most other classes either have At Will melee or ranged capability or Encounter (i.e. short rest) ones which allow for them to shine more often.

Sure, a specialized non-human Dwarven or Elven wizard might have At Wills stronger than cantrips, but this is not the case for all races.

I still don't see a problem.

I'm not there to take turns in the spotlight, what exactly constitutes spotlight varies from player to player, I am there to play my concept. I don't care if Jimmy the Rogue picks a lock or two and then somewhere down the line I get to pick one too. I don't see many adventures that have this giant lock at the end and it's a competition between us who gets to unlock it. Also, two people of the same class can go in two different directions and those classes that are similar do not play exactly the same.

Repeating damage is never a bad thing and why aren't the spellcasters talking with each other about spells? If you want the monopoly on Sleep then speak up, even though I don't see multiple Sleep spells a bad thing. I'm seeing a lot of carry over attitude from 4th edition here.

 

[weldon]

If I had to do the first episode over again, I'd go the route of having the party be in town for a day or so and then be attacked by a very young dragon along with the raiders. The young dragon being plausible given the hatchery in episode three.

Brilliant. I might use this.

The change here doesn't make the dragon so overpowering at the start, but introduces the theme. It also suggests a situation where the cultists have been a nuisance for a while, but now they show up with a baby dragon (in chains?) and a bunch more soldiers to make themselves a real problem. If they have a baby dragon, the obvious question is, "where did they get that?" which leads to finding their camp and the hatchery.

It also provides some foreshadowing for encountering progressively older dragons as the adventure continues.

 

[KarinsDad]

I still don't see a problem.

I'm not there to take turns in the spotlight, what exactly constitutes spotlight varies from player to player, I am there to play my concept. I don't care if Jimmy the Rogue picks a lock or two and then somewhere down the line I get to pick one too. I don't see many adventures that have this giant lock at the end and it's a competition between us who gets to unlock it. Also, two people of the same class can go in two different directions and those classes that are similar do not play exactly the same.

Repeating damage is never a bad thing and why aren't the spellcasters talking with each other about spells? If you want the monopoly on Sleep then speak up, even though I don't see multiple Sleep spells a bad thing. I'm seeing a lot of carry over attitude from 4th edition here.

Have you actually played 5E where the low level Wizard only has a few spells and when he casts some of them, the foe saves and the spell fizzles?

Have you cast cantrips most rounds and averaged less than 3 (or sometimes even 2) DPR round after round, encounter after encounter, adventuring day after adventuring day because the to hit or damage dice were a little cold?

Yes, it is not a competition. But when some PCs are averaging more than double (and sometimes triple) your damage, have more hit points, better AC, and they can cast spells just like you, it can be a bit monotonous. It's like you are the henchmen and they are the PCs.

Judge that all you want, but it is what it is. It sucks a bit to be the 5th wheel for the first four levels (6 months of real time in our case due to scheduling conflicts) until you finally starting casting Fireball and making a real significant contribution. While most of the other PCs are making a significant contribution half of the rounds, the Wizard often does it once or twice per adventuring day.


Or try playing a 1st level Wizard when everyone else is 8th level because you died (and if the DM catches you in an area of effect, you will minimally go unconscious again). You will really feel like the party henchmen, and until you personally actually do that, don't judge others. Even if you've DMed for a PC wizard, don't judge until you yourself have played that type of PC in that type of party (versatile, well designed PCs) for many months in that situation. It actually does get old at times. Not all of the time, but once in a while when everyone else contributed in a fight and your PC did not do anything. With 3 and 4 rounds 5E encounters, it can happen more than you think.

And btw, before someone jumps on the roleplaying bandwagon, I am not talking about that. I am only talking about the combat aspect of the game.

 

[Sailor Moon]

Have you actually played 5E where the low level Wizard only has a few spells and when he casts some of them, the foe saves and the spell fizzles?

Have you cast cantrips most rounds and averaged less than 3 (or sometimes even 2) DPR round after round, encounter after encounter, adventuring day after adventuring day because the to hit or damage dice were a little cold?

Yes, it is not a competition. But when some PCs are averaging more than double (and sometimes triple) your damage, have more hit points, better AC, and they can cast spells just like you, it can be a bit monotonous. It's like you are the henchmen and they are the PCs.

Judge that all you want, but it is what it is. It sucks a bit to be the 5th wheel for the first four levels (6 months of real time in our case due to scheduling conflicts) until you finally starting casting Fireball and making a real significant contribution. While most of the other PCs are making a significant contribution half of the rounds, the Wizard often does it once or twice per adventuring day.


Or try playing a 1st level Wizard when everyone else is 8th level because you died (and if the DM catches you in an area of effect, you will minimally go unconscious again). You will really feel like the party henchmen, and until you personally actually do that, don't judge others. Even if you've DMed for a PC wizard, don't judge until you yourself have played that type of PC in that type of party (versatile, well designed PCs) for many months in that situation. It actually does get old at times. Not all of the time, but once in a while when everyone else contributed in a fight and your PC did not do anything. With 3 and 4 rounds 5E encounters, it can happen more than you think.

And btw, before someone jumps on the roleplaying bandwagon, I am not talking about that. I am only talking about the combat aspect of the game.

Sorry but I'm not about the DPR. Couldn't give a fig tree how much damage, AC, HP, or to hit Bob has. As long as I am playing my concept then it's all good. This edition wasn't designed around the things you have a problem with, hell no edition was designed to handle what you have a problem with. Hell, everyone misses, everyone has a bad night of rolls, everyone has had a character killed. I mean if you have a beef with having a bad night or two of gaming then you aren't the only one in that boat, the difference between you and I is I understand that it is a game and sometimes these things happen. There are better systems out there that would be better suited for the kind of things you want. I'm glad I don't have to worry about these things with this new edition.

 

[KarinsDad]

Sorry but I'm not about the DPR. Couldn't give a fig tree how much damage, AC, HP, or to hit Bob has. As long as I am playing my concept then it's all good. This edition wasn't designed around the things you have a problem with, hell no edition was designed to handle what you have a problem with. Hell, everyone misses, everyone has a bad night of rolls, everyone has had a character killed. I mean if you have a beef with having a bad night or two of gaming then you aren't the only one in that boat, the difference between you and I is I understand that it is a game and sometimes these things happen. There are better systems out there that would be better suited for the kind of things you want. I'm glad I don't have to worry about these things with this new edition.

I'm glad that you are so mellow with your game and that your focus is different than mine (in combat, my focus in on contributing, I prefer being a solid part of the team, not someone the rest of the team has to carry). You said that you did not see the problem, so I explained it. Just because it does not apply to you does not mean that it does not apply to others. Have fun with your game.

 

[Parmandur]

I've played a low level High Elf Diviner in Lost Mines; it's a blast, even when the attempt to nova fizzles.