D&D 5E Rethinking Attributes

Einlanzer0

Explorer
I definitely think WotC dropped the ball in not updating attributes for 5e. They've never been particularly well handled. Here are my biggest complaints in a nutshell:

1. They aren't very well balanced. Some attributes (Dex, Con) are much more generally useful than others (Int, Cha). This is in part due to the way the mental stats are caster-based (see below)
2. Dex is too broad relative to other scores. It really should be split into Dex and Agility, the same way Str and Con and Int and Wis are separated.
3. There is no ability score governing aptitude with magic. This is a personal preference, but IMO it makes no sense that, say, Int, governs literally everything about how proficient you are at casting spells, with no measure for innate ability outside of how smart you are. it also leads to Int being a dumpstat for every besides wizards, which is goofy.
4. The mental stats are all weirdly conceived, poorly defined, and aren't even utilized well within the poor definitions used. As an example - Wis is actually an aspect of Int, and has nothing to do with perception, and is inversely correlated with zeal.

So, here I present my ability score system designed for granularity (there is an option to come for reduced granularity, featuring 3-4 attributes instead of 6). This expands the 6 current scores into 9 (which scales neatly), with one of those 9 (Thaumaturgy) being used only for spellcasters. This is intended for two things - a.) to help balance spellcasters relative to non-spellcasters, and b.) to allow other attributes to be better balanced and desirable for all classes. All spellcasters will use Thaumaturgy to set save DCs and attack rolls for spells, but may use other attributes as well - such as a wizard receiving bonus spells based on Int. It's worth noting that virtually all classes will face increased MAD from these changes, which is actually intended. Character building should involve tough choices, which makes it more interesting and leads to greater diversity among characters. I am well aware that there will probably need to be tweaks to some class features to make sure none are unjustly boosted or nerfed by these changes. It will be a work in progress.

Strength - Muscle power and stamina. Attack Rolls - melee and thrown ranged Skill - Athletics. Secondary Mechanics - Encumbrance.
Dexterity - Hand-eye coordination and motor skills. Attack rolls - finesse melee and ranged. Skill - Legerdemain. Secondary Mechanics - Crit range.
Thaumaturgy - Aptitude for channeling magics. Attack rolls - all spells. Skill - Spellcraft. Secondary Mechanics - Rituals
Constitution - Endurance, health, and tolerance of discomfort. Skills - Focus, Tolerance. Secondary Mechanics - HP and HD
Agility - speed, physical reflexes, grace, and balance. Skills - Acrobatics, Stealth. Secondary mechanics - light/no armor AC, Initiative
Instinct - Awareness, mental reflexes, sensory processing - Skills - Perception, Survival. Secondary mechanics - passive perception
Intellect - education, memory, problem solving. Skills - Lore, Logic. Secondary mechanics - Tactics (variant Hero Points)
Wisdom - judgment, maturity, and empathy. Skills - Caregiving, Investigation. Secondary mechanics - Sanity (resource for mental damage)
Charisma - presence and magnetism. Skills - Influence, Performance. Secondary mechanics - Reknown and Loyalty (charisma also takes on more will based saves)

That's all! As you can see, all "primary attributes" (Str, Dex, and Tha) are tied to one type of attack/dmg roll and 1 skill. "Secondary" attributes (Con, Agi, Awa, Int, Wis, Cha) are all tied to two skills. All attributes have at least one sub-mechanic making them worthwhile for anyone who wants to take them. It's also worth noting that 4 attributes (Str, Con, Agi, Ins) are applicable to pretty much all ambulatory life forms while the other 4 (Dex, Int, Wis, Cha) are specific to intelligent life.
 
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sidonunspa

First Post
Einlanzer

there is a component you are not taking into consideration.... D&D Attributes are iconic, their use (Dude that guy as a 18 charisma!) has permeated into popular culture.

just like Hit Points and Armor Class these things can't be changed without changing the heart of the game.
 

Einlanzer0

Explorer
Einlanzer

there is a component you are not taking into consideration.... D&D Attributes are iconic, their use (Dude that guy as a 18 charisma!) has permeated into popular culture.

just like Hit Points and Armor Class these things can't be changed without changing the heart of the game.

I don't really think that's a good enough reason to not iterate on the concepts. Besides, these are mostly additions rather than replacements. (i.e. saying someone has an 18 charisma would still apply)
 


Christian

Explorer
It's certainly possible that these, or other variations, would have been better choices early on. The fact is that after forty-odd years of the same six attributes at the core of the game (aside from the brief flirtation with Comeliness in 1985 and the poorly-adopted optional add-on rules in S&P), I'm not going to argue with anyone who says that game wouldn't be D&D.

In any case, I guarantee WOTC will never do it. They're a business; and the number of developer-hours needed to design all of the rules integrating the new ability scores with the rest of the game, playtest and troubleshoot those changes and their unexpected side-effects, and to publish books with the new ruleset, divided by the number of those books they'd be likely to sell, equals a big red mark on the ledger and little pink slips for the executives who green-lit the project.
 

SirAntoine

Banned
Banned
An interesting take on ability score re-design. I have read many of these types of threads, and I salute your effort and presentation, Einlanzer. I agree with sidonunspa, however, that the six ability scores we've all come to know are iconic. They are integral to one of the most fundamental parts of play: how we describe our characters. If you changed it, even not very much, you would change a very big part of how it felt to play the game.
 

Rune

Once A Fool
You might get more analytical responses to your mechanics if you posted in the house rules forum. This forum is more prone to give theories about the viability (or lack thereof) of WoTC adopting these approaches themselves. And a bit of history involving TSR's previous attempts to do something similar.
 

AmerginLiath

Adventurer
It's true that WotC wouldn't redesign the list of attributes. Even in 4e, that was never tried. With the heavier reliance on attributes in 5e, there isn't going to be a longer list, given how many people still try to use dump stats (against the original notion of attribute-based saving throws, etc). What COULD have been done – and what I would likely do as DM – is find a better balance of using the attributes in saves, skill checks, et cetera.

The issue of Charisma, for example, is actually a DM failing given the various morale options throughout the edition (for the first 10-15 years of D&D, Charisma was THE God-Stat, given it's use in reaction adjustments and henchman/hirelings). Likewise, Intelligence not being used enough is a matter of Intelligence (and Intelligence-skill) checks being neglected by DM and players over-used to combat (included using the misnomer of "tactical," when no one can even have the pretense of tactics without intelligence – if you dump intelligence, grab a club and a throwing rock at Ogres 'R Us).
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
I think the big problem is saves.

Having saves for all stats is a great idea. It just wasn't carried out well. Even having major and minor saves is fine. The problem is that intelligence and charisma saves are far too rare.

Dex - major save, initiative, AC (great design to have heavy armour ignore dex though)
Con - major save, hit points (makes this needed for everyone)
Wis - major save, perception (at least in a party this is not as needed)

In contrast Str, Int and Cha are all minor saves and don't have big passive benefits.

I like the effort but I think the execution is a little lacking.
 

delericho

Legend
Einlanzer

there is a component you are not taking into consideration.... D&D Attributes are iconic, their use (Dude that guy as a 18 charisma!) has permeated into popular culture.

just like Hit Points and Armor Class these things can't be changed without changing the heart of the game.

This. The six ability scores are one of the truly sacred cows of D&D. I will be shocked if they are ever changed in an RPG bearing the name D&D.
 

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