D&D 5E Spell interaction conundrum

[SirAntoine]

"A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell... A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle." PHB pg 196
"To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover." PHB pg 204

Mage hand appears at a target location within range. Wall of force should stop spells based on cover (regardless of lack of obscurement). As long as there are no openings for the hand to float through it should be good to disallow.

No. The hand does not need to float through the wall, it appears out of thin air on the opposite side and nothing is arrested or arrestable by the wall or any other wall to stop the caster from moving the hand. The cover rules apply to attacks with arrows and such, where a projectile or bolt of physical energy like fire or lighting needs to travel to the target. Being really technical, so long as the caster can see where he or she wants to place the mage hand, nothing is moving that could ever be stopped by a wall.

 

[Dausuul]

Unlikely. They are very technical with all their words in the new edition.

Huh? Where on earth are you getting this from? 5E is more careful with its language than AD&D was, but it's far less precise than 4E, and (IMO) somewhat less than 3E.

If the designers made a mistake with the wall, they need to make it official errata.

So far as I know, there is currently no such thing as "official errata." But Mearls did confirm that wall of force was intended to block magic:

Q: Is there a line of effect in D&D and does Wall of Force block it?
Mearls: in general, a barrier that stops physical objects stops spells.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/conten...e-from-Designers-Mearls-Crawford#.VLoqqtLF_hc

 

[SirAntoine]

Huh? Where on earth are you getting this from? 5E is more careful with its language than AD&D was, but it's far less precise than 4E, and (IMO) somewhat less than 3E.


So far as I know, there is currently no such thing as "official errata." But Mearls did confirm that wall of force was intended to block magic:

Q: Is there a line of effect in D&D and does Wall of Force block it?
Mearls: in general, a barrier that stops physical objects stops spells.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/conten...e-from-Designers-Mearls-Crawford#.VLoqqtLF_hc

I have the PHB. What Mike Mearls said was in general, the wall of force would block spells, but the questions do not say what a line of effect is. Nothing is being moved past the wall with mage hand. Isn't that clear enough to be an exception? What do you think line of effect means?

 

[Ashrym]

No. The hand does not need to float through the wall, it appears out of thin air on the opposite side and nothing is arrested or arrestable by the wall or any other wall to stop the caster from moving the hand. The cover rules apply to attacks with arrows and such, where a projectile or bolt of physical energy like fire or lighting needs to travel to the target. Being really technical, so long as the caster can see where he or she wants to place the mage hand, nothing is moving that could ever be stopped by a wall.

It cannot appear on the other side of the wall because the caster cannot target a point in space on the other side of the wall at which it will appear. A space is also a target. The rules cover casting spells at targets behind cover too. The target location is blocked from access.

 

[SirAntoine]

It cannot appear on the other side of the wall because the caster cannot target a point in space on the other side of the wall at which it will appear. A space is also a target. The rules cover casting spells at targets behind cover too.

The language is just confusing. When adjudicating what a spell does, sometimes you have to reason it out yourself. Ask yourself what is happening there. The mage hand doesn't have to move through the wall, and the mage hand's creation at the point selected does not constitute an attack on anything. But maybe this will help, would you stop a wizard from teleporting past the wall? Because in that case, you have the wizard just reappearing at the point selected. The teleport spell does not say it takes the wizard through the Ethereal, or through the air, it just takes the wizard to his destination instantly. The wall of force is there to block physical movement through it, by matter or energy that has to pass through that space. Even if the wall of force was a perfect sphere around the destination, the teleport would get past it because the wall can only stop what has to touch or go through it. The mage hand just appears out of thin air. I can see you might want to rule against an attack like fire storm getting past a protected area, but in this case I would much rather reward the player for being clever to use his mage hand spell.

 

[Ashrym]

The language is just confusing. When adjudicating what a spell does, sometimes you have to reason it out yourself. Ask yourself what is happening there. The mage hand doesn't have to move through the wall, and the mage hand's creation at the point selected does not constitute an attack on anything. But maybe this will help, would you stop a wizard from teleporting past the wall? Because in that case, you have the wizard just reappearing at the point selected. The teleport spell does not say it takes the wizard through the Ethereal, or through the air, it just takes the wizard to his destination instantly. The wall of force is there to block physical movement through it, by matter or energy that has to pass through that space. Even if the wall of force was a perfect sphere around the destination, the teleport would get past it because the wall can only stop what has to touch or go through it. The mage hand just appears out of thin air. I can see you might want to rule against an attack like fire storm getting past a protected area, but in this case I would much rather reward the player for being clever to use his mage hand spell.

The language isn't confusing at all. Target square, target creature, target location, target point in space, etc are all targets and "a target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell" is a direct quote. It's a the standard rule and specifies attacks or spells. The target location cannot be targeted because the target location is a location that is a target and the spell cannot target the target location because the spell cannot target the target location that has cover. It doesn't just appear on the other side because there's no valid target location on the other side.

 

[SirAntoine]

The language isn't confusing at all. Target square, target creature, target location, target point in space, etc are all targets and "a target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell" is a direct quote. It's a the standard rule and specifies attacks or spells. The target location cannot be targeted because the target location is a location that is a target and the spell cannot target the target location because the spell cannot target the target location that has cover. It doesn't just appear on the other side because there's no valid target location on the other side.

I think somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Two different people just said they hadn't seen technical language in the new edition. Sheesh! You must be a rules lawyer. Are you trying to be redundant, or is this how you talk regularly, Ashrym? Next time, how about replying to all of my post, though. Then we could have a conversation.

I stand by what I said.

 

[SirAntoine]

The hand appears on the other side of the wall. It is not an area of effect spell. It summons into existence a hand of force at a point you can see within range. If you want to not have it appear somewhere either block line of sight, make that point out of the range of the spell, or place the location in an anti-magic field.

So just use two walls of force 35 feet apart from each other with the wizard on one far side and the switch on the other.
Place the switch in a globe of darkness.
Place the switch in an anti-magic zone.

Exactly right.

 

[PeelSeel2]

Or do not worry about it......rule, in this case, magic effects cannot pass through. After all, the wizard spent years of his life researching and improving upon the wall of force to make it impenetrable. It is really not a wall of force any more, it is something greater.

 

[Gilladian]

Thanks, everyone!

I think, in this case, I will be doing the following: the three-wall-of-force trap the pcs must penetrate to enter the tower basement will be the simpler style wall of force that can be defeated with Mage hand. The wall that the apprentice corrupted to deliberately trap her mentor will be an improved version that will be visibly a bit different. It will disallow penetration by Mage hand, telepathy and teleport. I'll say it is a 9 th level spell, and it is in the mage's spell book in the tower. The pcs don't actually need to defeat this one, as they're on the side where the lever is, once they've made it past a host of other traps.

Then they get to meet the ghost of the wizard, who died of old age, trapped in the tower...