D&D 5E magic items prices

[Eejit]

Why are you so snarky?

People in the real world buy used Ferrari's and Maserati at high end car dealerships. It's a "normal shop" in the sense that people (who can afford to) just come in and buy.

How is this implausible in a fantasy world? Who says that it has to be an auction shop?

And who says that it's implausible for common and uncommon lesser value items? Nothing says that everything has to be about the high end stuff.

At $100 per gold piece, a 50 GP potion of healing = $5000.

A 500 GP uncommon item like a +1 sword = $50,000.

In the real world, there are "car shops" and "boat shops" and all kinds of shops (art, clothing, etc.) where items can be purchased in the $10,000 to $50,000 range. Even at $500,000 for more expensive items, there are Realtor shops for those people wanting to buy a house. The same could happen in a fantasy world without an "auction".

It makes total sense that low end stuff ($500 GP and less) could be bought/sold in a (using your words) "normal shop" and that the high end stuff could be bought/sold using other venues.


Course in a D&D world with magic, even the high end stuff could be in a normal shop.

You point doesn't stand. It falls over and plays dead.

I'm missing the part where typical fantasy worlds have populations in the region of 7 billion participating in their economies. Think high end art dealing in the Renaissance, not the late 20th century or early 21st.

The population interested in such extreme luxury goods wouldn't be sufficient to support shops.

 

[Werebat]

I'm glad that there aren't concrete rules for buying and selling items in the DMG. In my experience once a system is present a good number of players take it as gospel. I can't begin to count the number of threads I've seen from 3e-4e & pathfinder where players expect item X to cost Y because that's what is in the book. It didn't matter what the DM's campaign was, it just mattered what was in the book.

By having loose, optional guidelines you satisfy both crowds IMO. You can easily run the default setup of no magic item shops and you can easily run with magic item shops. The only difference is that the DM has to put a little bit of work into pricing.

Another thing the 5E method does is eliminate all of those "Bunko's Bargain Basement" optimization threads that point out all of the "good" magic items because they are the most "efficiently priced".

My gaming group contains enough powergaming optimizers than even the players who aren't inclined to play that way end up feeling obligated to do so because if they don't, they end up swimming in the wakes of the players who do. In 3E/PF, what would inevitably happen is that players would calculate the "best" items to get for their characters based on price and utility ("bang for the buck"). They would sell any items they found that weren't optimally priced and use the money to craft items of equal price but greater power (because they were more optimally priced). This would happen routinely and players would tend to end up with the same "bargain basement" items over and over, having turned their noses up at everything else that wasn't optimally priced.

The kick in the teeth was when they would start bitching about how they never found any "cool items" and always ended up with the same stuff.

Really the only way to give them what they wanted was to create some new, wildly underpriced items and have them find those, which of course put even more power into the hands of powergaming optimizers. And woe betide the DM who complains about overpowered PCs on webfora frequented by powergamers once those powergamers learn that part of the power problem stems from nonstandard items that the DM handed out!

The 5E system is going to shift the powergaming advantage from Int-based optimizers who read webfora to Cha-based wheedlers who have a natural talent for getting their DMs to give them what they want. It's understandable how the old guard (who really only needed to be smart enough to do web searches) might feel angry about this change.

 

[Paraxis]

You don't need the absence of information to lower the boot on "lame player appeals to authority", you just need to empower the DM to make the game his own, which they do and always have. Not having the information only hurts the DM by not giving him a better guideline to judge relative power of items.

For example I mentioned the Encyclopedia Magica for 2nd editon earlier to show that items have had purchase prices listed since 1994, here is the excerpt from the cost section of that book.

Gold Piece Value: Throughout the ENCYCLOPEDIA MAGICA volumes, items are given a value, listed in gp. This does not mean that every item can be purchased by simply surrendering the specified coinage. Instead, gp value is used to rate the relative values of different items to each other. In individual campaigns, the Dungeon Master may wish to increase the "bartering value" of items two-fold, ten-fold or even 100-fold to keep magical items the rare and wonderful things that they are, and it's a great way to keep the campaign from overbalancing.

To me the part that is missing as a DM is "Instead, gp value is used to rate the relative values of different items to each other." - the current 5e system is very much lacking in that regard, and since the concern of player agency and expectations is completely removed with a simple paragraph like this mentioning a range of increase from listed to 100 times the cost I don't see how not having individual item prices is a good thing.

In 3e most of the time I ran things by the book because I like to play that way, but a few times I ran low magic or high magic campaigns and limited items in my game. Same thing in 4e, ran a Dark Sun campaign where you couldn't purchase magic items at all, but the system still gave guidelines and relative value to better gauge what level the items should be handed out.

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm missing the part where typical fantasy worlds have populations in the region of 7 billion participating in their economies. Think high end art dealing in the Renaissance, not the late 20th century or early 21st.

The population interested in such extreme luxury goods wouldn't be sufficient to support shops.

Renaissance worlds did not have magic or magic items. Apples and oranges. Once you add in magic, all bets are off.


It's quite simple. Real world mass production, population, world economies, historic decision making, none of this matters when making plausible game decisions.

What matters is human behavior (both of players sitting at the table, and of their roleplaying of their PCs/NPCs). That is the yardstick by which one measures what is plausible in a fantasy world.

Let's talk behaviors like greed. Some (many) people are greedy. They will do anything to make a buck. Including buying, stealing, and selling magic items. It's normal human behavior. Any DM who says "PCs cannot buy or sell magic items in my world" is creating a bizarro world that goes against type. Some players don't really understand such a campaign. They'll play in the game, but it won't make a lot of sense. In order to placate the fact that it doesn't make sense, a DM might say "magic items are rare and special, that's the reason they cannot be bought or sold". On the surface, this might satisfy some players or at least allow them to ignore the incongruity. But for other players, it still sounds like total BS. The very fact that they are rare and special means that they should be in even MORE demand. Supply and demand. Economics 101.


Now, your point appears solely to be about magic item shops. You think "high end art dealing during the Renaissance" where people were poor and only the very wealthy could afford these types of goods.

And that's an ok point, but it fails some basic tests. Like the fact that healing potions are in the PHB with a price. It's expected that they can be purchased in a shop by most players, just like rope. A price ($50 GP) which is WAY outside what poor people can afford. Wouldn't poor people raid shops that sell potions of healing? It's the "doctor in a can" that doesn't even exist in the real world. Poor NPCs would clamor for that.

How about plate mail? 1500 GP. 3 times the cost of an uncommon magic item.

Where does one buy this in a fantasy world if the $500 GP magic items cannot be purchased?

How is is ok to have a merchant to buy plate mail from, but not one to buy a magic item from?


The point is, your POV is fine for your game. Don't have magic item shops. Don't have plate mail shops. Don't have shops with healing potions in them. That's ok.

But, your point is less plausible than one that does have ways for PCs to acquire plate mail, healing potions, scrolls, and many other magic items. Your POV is contrived. If a magic fantasy world really existed, especially one where NPCs can craft magic items, there would be ways to acquire these types of items and a very common one, at least for lower end items, would be shops. Everybody would know that in order to buy magic stuff, one has to go to the Emporium in Waterdeep.

These shops would not be in villages and even not in most towns. But every adventurer who finds gold coins and spends them means that more and more money is going back into circulation and hence, the market is there. Other adventurers, young noblemen with fat purses, traveling merchants who no longer want to fear bandits and monsters.

Supply and demand and common human behavior.


Some players want to create a PC that will build a fortress or temple or home base. I can understand that. But, my PCs are not there to do that. I am playing a game of adventure and exploring and combat, not one of building a home. The enjoyment for me is not in roleplaying politics or pedestrian interactions. Rather, it is the mystery of going to other places, and doing other things. To me, collecting gold is not a means to an end of building a building. That is SOOOOO boring sounding to me as a player. Yeah, it's fine if the team comes up with a home base and we all chip in, but I'll let some other player come up with the floor plans. I want to spend my money on things that help my PC to explore, not for things to decorate a house.

You might prefer differently, and that's ok. But the plausibility of magic items shops is dependent on the expectations of everyone at the table, not just the DM. IMO.

 

[Dausuul]

I'm glad that there aren't concrete rules for buying and selling items in the DMG. In my experience once a system is present a good number of players take it as gospel. I can't begin to count the number of threads I've seen from 3e-4e & pathfinder where players expect item X to cost Y because that's what is in the book. It didn't matter what the DM's campaign was, it just mattered what was in the book.

By having loose, optional guidelines you satisfy both crowds IMO. You can easily run the default setup of no magic item shops and you can easily run with magic item shops. The only difference is that the DM has to put a little bit of work into pricing. But that right there is probably the cusp of the issue. Some people want their menu laid out in front of them. They don't want to put the effort into putting everything together or waiting for their DM to put it together. And for those players 5e doesn't meet that expectation. It's not right or wrong, it's just not what they were hoping for. For those of us who like our magical items rare and special it works great.

Other than having to put a little effort into a game, 5e easily supports both styles of play.

Exactly. All the DM has to do is say, "Items are priced at the low end of the range. Common items cost 50 gp, uncommons cost 101 gp, etc." Or "Items are priced at the top of the range. Commons cost 100 gp, uncommons cost 500 gp, etc." Or anywhere in between. Presto, magic item shops.

 

[Werebat]

Any DM who says "PCs cannot buy or sell magic items in my world" is creating a bizarro world that goes against type. Some players don't really understand such a campaign. They'll play in the game, but it won't make a lot of sense. In order to placate the fact that it doesn't make sense, a DM might say "magic items are rare and special, that's the reason they cannot be bought or sold". On the surface, this might satisfy some players or at least allow them to ignore the incongruity. But for other players, it still sounds like total BS. The very fact that they are rare and special means that they should be in even MORE demand. Supply and demand. Economics 101.

I could come up with a rationale that is not in the books, but there is sense in what you say.

For the record, I would never bar players from selling magic items. They might not be able to sell them for more than a fraction of their value, but given a large enough community with a strong enough economy, I'd allow them to sell unwanted magic items using the rules given in the DMG.

Similarly, I'd probably have many if not most such communities contain merchants that might host the occasional magic item auction -- probably open only to the "right" people, although PCs might be able to perform services for those people that would enable them to gain admission (or maybe just a peek at the list of what's for sale -- the contact could do the bidding for them, if they trusted them enough).

If they exist and are useful or even just rare enough, there will certainly be a market for them. But it won't be a corner market, prices won't be set in stone, and most items will not be available most of the time.

And, behind the scenes, if the DM doesn't want your PC to get his hands on a wand of faerie fire -- then they never will. Period.

I have no problem with that. I can understand why some players might feel passionately otherwise.

 

[Paraxis]

How is the following helpful.

List of Rare items, disposable items are listed as having 2 of them because the book suggests that they are half the value of a permanent item.

• (2x) Arrow +2
• Amulet of Health (sets Con to 19, helpful to almost everyone)
• Leather armor +1 (this is a joke item right? it is the same as normal studded leather which costs 45gp)
• Belt of Hill Giant Strength (why is this the same as a 19 Con item?)
• Cloak of Displacement (one of the most beneficial items in the game IMO)
• Flame Tongue (nice sword good item)
• Glamoured Studded Leather (so 2 points better AC than Leather +1, and can change it's appearance)
• Helm of Teleportation (nice, this changes the whole campaign)
• Portable hole (a classic)
• (2x) Potion of Frost Giant Strength (ie a 23 str, that belt that gives a constant 21 is looking nice)
• Rod of the Pact Keeper +2 (amazing item better than a +2 weapon hands down)
• (2x) Scrolls of Protection

That is just a sample of all rare rated items, the spread of abilities and usefulness is all over the place. Some of those items are way better than others. Some are better than Very Rare items, like the Belt of Giant Strength gives a 21, when the very rare ion stone gives a +2 with a max of 20.

So setting your price based solely on rarity if you want magic item shops is obviously not a good idea.

 

[bmcdaniel]

I don't understand all the arguments from "realism." Despite the natural human tendency to trade, there are plenty of very realistic reasons why a campaign world might not develop markets for magic items. Here are a couple I've used in my campaigns:

1. Using magic, its a lot cheaper and easier to fake a magic item than to determine if a magic item is real. As a result, buyers can't tell genuine items from fakes, discount the value of the item, and the market collapses. Economists have a name for this, lemon markets. This model implies that very thin markets might exist, perhaps reputable persons that will charge a hefty markup to indemnify buyers or expensive persons to verify that the magic is real. Magic item sales are more likely to be bespoke, high-value items that can bear the transaction costs involved.

2. Money doesn't dominate the campaign's economy like it does in the modern world. Perhaps the world more closely resembles primitive "gifting" societies or feudal economies. Perhaps money isn't a very good store of value, either because alchemists have figured out how to create it from nothing or simple methods of determining purity don't exist. In these societies, magic items may be exchanged, but they are more likely to be inheirited, gifted, or traded for services, allegiance or love.

3. Legal and/or social pressures limit the market for magic items. Magic items may still exist, but only in black markets, which are full of fakes, and inflated prices. Or alternatively, they may only be usable by certain groups (wizards) or social classes (nobles), or their use may be viewed negatively (magic as the tool of the devil). Limited markets may exist around the edges, but not really usable by PCs.


The point is, if you want to make it heard or impossible for PCs to buy magic items, it isn't hard to come up with "realistic" reasons that make it plausible to do so (certainly more "realistic than flying dragons!).

 

[Werebat]

How is the following helpful.

List of Rare items, disposable items are listed as having 2 of them because the book suggests that they are half the value of a permanent item.

• (2x) Arrow +2
• Amulet of Health (sets Con to 19, helpful to almost everyone)
• Leather armor +1 (this is a joke item right? it is the same as normal studded leather which costs 45gp)
• Belt of Hill Giant Strength (why is this the same as a 19 Con item?)
• Cloak of Displacement (one of the most beneficial items in the game IMO)
• Flame Tongue (nice sword good item)
• Glamoured Studded Leather (so 2 points better AC than Leather +1, and can change it's appearance)
• Helm of Teleportation (nice, this changes the whole campaign)
• Portable hole (a classic)
• (2x) Potion of Frost Giant Strength (ie a 23 str, that belt that gives a constant 21 is looking nice)
• Rod of the Pact Keeper +2 (amazing item better than a +2 weapon hands down)
• (2x) Scrolls of Protection

That is just a sample of all rare rated items, the spread of abilities and usefulness is all over the place. Some of those items are way better than others. Some are better than Very Rare items, like the Belt of Giant Strength gives a 21, when the very rare ion stone gives a +2 with a max of 20.

So setting your price based solely on rarity if you want magic item shops is obviously not a good idea.

True enough, but by the book, just because these items are all Rare does NOT mean they will all sell for the same price! Rare items have a value RANGE, not a set value.

The corner cases you come up with are all easily handled by a DM with a modicum of common sense.

 

[KarinsDad]

I could come up with a rationale that is not in the books, but there is sense in what you say.

For the record, I would never bar players from selling magic items. They might not be able to sell them for more than a fraction of their value, but given a large enough community with a strong enough economy, I'd allow them to sell unwanted magic items using the rules given in the DMG.

Similarly, I'd probably have many if not most such communities contain merchants that might host the occasional magic item auction -- probably open only to the "right" people, although PCs might be able to perform services for those people that would enable them to gain admission (or maybe just a peek at the list of what's for sale -- the contact could do the bidding for them, if they trusted them enough).

If they exist and are useful or even just rare enough, there will certainly be a market for them. But it won't be a corner market, prices won't be set in stone, and most items will not be available most of the time.

And, behind the scenes, if the DM doesn't want your PC to get his hands on a wand of faerie fire -- then they never will. Period.

I have no problem with that. I can understand why some players might feel passionately otherwise.

I agree with you 100%.

I only have two issues on this subject:

1) The DMG stating that magic items should not be purchased as the default rule without having good optional rules to support the thousands of gaming tables that prefer the alternative.

2) People stating that magic item shops don't make sense. They do. They might not be the preference for some players and that's cool. But, they make just as much sense as any other shop given basic economics and human behaviors. If plate mail can be bought for $1500, then an uncommon magic item should be purchasable for $500 GP or thereabouts (using the DMG craft prices).


Wasn't there an organization called F.E.A.R or some such acronym (fraternity against armored riff raff) in the original City State of the Invincible Overlord? They didn't want adventurers walking around in plate mail and thought that adventurers should not be allowed to use the best armors (couldn't buy it, would be arrested for wearing it, etc.).