D&D 5E Analyzing 5E: Overpowered by design

[Celtavian]

Tell me have you ever used or seen a high level 17+ Fighter (with Sharpshooter etc) in play along side a Wizard?

I'm getting the feeling you haven't.

No magic items, against monster manual monsters. They out damage every single character in the party, the Wizard really can't keep up.
A sorcerer has a better chance of keeping up, but I haven't seen a high level Sorcerer yet. A SorcLock can out damage the Fighter, but that's actually a character that is truly overpowered.

You're feeling is incorrect. I get the feeling you consider power to mean only damage. I don't mean that. I'm talking about power to affect the game world on all levels. There is more to power than damage.

The martials doing a lot of damage is no different in Pathfinder or 3E. They outdamaged wizards in 3E. But they weren't more powerful. I watched barbarians with Come and Get Me do 500 points plus damage a round. I watched Archers do 200 plus a round. I watched two-weapon fighters crit for 220 points of damage a hit. On a lucky round, they would do nutty damage. How is that a change from previous editions? The martials outdamaging the casters is standard for D&D.

Even your power combination requires a 9th level spell, something your archer doesn't have access to on his own. He has to receive that from another caster. When I'm talking power, I'm talking in all aspects of the game. Not the single damage focused aspect the martial characters have always been good at.

Your describing straight-forward battles that apparently allow Mr. Archer to fire at the dragon from 600 feet away? Dragons are meat to archers. What if your archer is fighting a caster that is invisible with mind blank up? Then he moves around and your guy doesn't know where to fire.

Where are the banishment or illusions attacking intelligence? Why isn't anyone sealing your archer off and forcing him to make a Cha check to escape? Seems like a lot of ideal circumstances and poorly planned encounters on your part to challenge your EK archer.

I still don't understand why your wizard doesn't make a simulacrum of the archer. Is it really that hard to come by 1500 gold in your campaign?

 

[Celtavian]

Power-building and clever optimizing makes for overpowered characters?

Well yes, as that is generally the point of doing so.

I'm sorry, but this thread reeks of "If you build a really good character, it'll be really powerful! Therefore the edition is broken!"

I've never experienced any problems with any of this and perhaps 5th is designed to be played fast and violent, what's wrong with that? Wasn't one of people's major complaints about 4th that combat could drag on for hours? (I loved 4th and I agree that was a major issue with it) If your party is amped-up, amp up your enemies. An extra die+5dmg every turn will put those optimizers in their place.

Except nowhere does it say the edition is broken.

 

[pemerton]

Simple enough - the enemy advances but with a defensive attitude

It could represent several things.

Sizing up the enemy (like in a boxing ring where participants do not come out swinging right away).

Thanks.

So "Dodge" doesn't literally have to be dodging. This is a bit like using "Disengage" to close and thereby avoid OAs.

 

[Celtavian]

My experience with the Paladin that it is awesome with GWM, especially when you have a lot of hold person in the group, which Lore Bard, Abjurer, Cleric, and even the Paladin all have. Autocrit + extra attack = insane damage. He's hit for 12d6 + 45 + 21d8 against some held opponents without any magical buffs.
Yes that aura is so good to have around, I can't tell you how many times they've failed a saving throw but the aura has made them succeed. Just a great all round class. Your group will love having +5 to saving throws from your aura early on.

Our Lore Bard on the other hand went for a more social/CC/utility build. He'd be a bit more effective in combat if he picked up something like Eldritch Blast as part of his magical secrets, but in terms of adventuring he's got some very nice spells (Mansion, Wind Walk, etc), since after all, it isn't all about combat! He is squishy at times though, I've dropped him a few times, so at level 14 he picked up Shield.

Also we can't forget Kenny, the Owl Familiar.

Paladin is the best all around martial class I think. They may lack for the pure, safe damage of the Archer optimization. Their overall packages is incredibly powerful in terms of offense, defense, and utility. They can add a bit of everything to the group in fairly powerful bursts.

 

[DaveDash]

You're feeling is incorrect. I get the feeling you consider power to mean only damage. I don't mean that. I'm talking about power to affect the game world on all levels. There is more to power than damage.

The martials doing a lot of damage is no different in Pathfinder or 3E. They outdamaged wizards in 3E. But they weren't more powerful. I watched barbarians with Come and Get Me do 500 points plus damage a round. I watched Archers do 200 plus a round. I watched two-weapon fighters crit for 220 points of damage a hit. On a lucky round, they would do nutty damage. How is that a change from previous editions? The martials outdamaging the casters is standard for D&D.

Even your power combination requires a 9th level spell, something your archer doesn't have access to on his own. He has to receive that from another caster. When I'm talking power, I'm talking in all aspects of the game. Not the single damage focused aspect the martial characters have always been good at.

Your describing straight-forward battles that apparently allow Mr. Archer to fire at the dragon from 600 feet away? Dragons are meat to archers. What if your archer is fighting a caster that is invisible with mind blank[/I up? Then he moves around and your guy doesn't know where to fire.

Where are the banishment or illusions attacking intelligence? Why isn't anyone sealing your archer off and forcing him to make a Cha check to escape? Seems like a lot of ideal circumstances and poorly planned encounters on your part to challenge your EK archer.

I still don't understand why your wizard doesn't make a simulacrum of the archer. Is it really that hard to come by 1500 gold in your campaign?

Because you play this game as a group, you don't play it individually to see who can do the most pew pew. What you are describing is what I said originally, that the Wizard is the most useful class overall. Yes monsters enemy NPCs can attempt to do this and that, but a high level party that has such a damage machine with them (remember his AT WILL damage is as high as your best spells) will work together to enable him to continue fighting, with counter spells, dispels, buffs, whatever.

The Wizard in my game hasn't bothered wasting the time and cost on Simulacrum for reasons I have stated. He has the gold for it, but it will probably last one fight (if that). If he cast Simulacrum on the Paladin for example, it would have about 60 hit points. That's not enough to survive very long, considering the average DPR of a creature at this level is around 100. Not worth it for 1500 GP and 8 hours casting time.
Summoning a Goristro is also pretty worthless as it will be banished pretty quickly by enemy spell casters (+2 saving throw won't help it even with magic resistance). At this level they're fighting casters with high DC's. It's also huge and they're in the underdark, so there's a lot of places it won't fit. Yeah you'd get some fun out of it, but it's not a viable long term strategy for them.

 

[DaveDash]

Just checking that I'm following this:

3 attacks (for fighter class) + 1 attack (for haste) = 4 attacks, for 1d8 (weapon) +5 (stat) +10 (feat) = around 20 points of damage per attack, for overall damage of around 80 per round.

Is that right?

For a crossbow its:
3 attacks + 1 bonus (Crossbow Expert) = 3.5 (1d6) weapon + 5 + 10 = 72 DPR without haste. 90 DPR with haste. More if you're a battle master. You don't hit all the time but you almost do.

 

[Sunseeker]

Except nowhere does it say the edition is broken.

Then it's not overpowered. It's exactly as powered as it should be, and this topic serves no purpose.

 

[KarinsDad]

Resilience (Wisdom) and Indomitable. If they're unlucky enough to fail, inspiration, if they're still unlucky enough to fail, Cleric casts calm emotions on them, or bard casts heroism, etc etc. No party should ever leave home without some way of dealing with fear.

How many feats do these theoretical fighters have?

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=6786202]DaveDash[/MENTION], thanks for the reply - and now a follow-up!

Can you unpack this one for me:

He's hit for 12d6 + 45 + 21d8 against some held opponents without any magical buffs.

 

[DaveDash]

How many feats do these theoretical fighters have?

2-3. Take note of the Fighter progression chart and you'll see something quite interesting in there. Fighters get 3 more feats than anyone else. Nothing theoretical about this. I'm not making up numbers, I'm pulling game statistics from real combat recorded in roll20.