D&D 5E Reasons Why My Interest in 5e is Waning

[pemerton]

Yeah, the release schedule stuff that is so important to many on here is not even something that is even remotely thought about by my group. They are just "is this game fun to play".

I play in a group of 6 (including me).

The one who has been playing RPGs the least amount of time has been playing for over 15 years (since I got him into Rolemaster in early 1998).

So I think we count as a fairly serious group.

We have two active campaigns: a 4e one, and a Burning Wheel one.

I own around 40 4e books, mostly hardcover. Of the others, all but one owns a PHB. I think there is also one PHB2, and one PHB 3. The fighter player has a Martial Power, the paladin player a Divine Power, and the sorcerer play an Arcane Power. I think two of the players also have DDI subscriptions.

WotC's release schedule is basically irrelevant to us. While they were publishing stuff that appealed to me, I bought it. Stuff they published that didn't appeal to me (eg Draconomicons, Eberron) I didn't buy. The others bought a bit of stuff relevant to their PCs, but that's it. Playing the game is about turning up to sessions ready to have fun, plus some character maintenance between sessions (for about half the players that's fun, for the others it's sometimes a chore).

As for Burning Wheel, there are only 6 books to own (5 books in Revised, plus the Gold hardback). I own all of them. One other player owns Gold and two Revised supplements. We shared these books to support PC creation, and the others play using "cheat sheets" that I wrote up. Luke Crane's release schedule (which as far as I know is now focused on Torchbearer) is irrelevant to us.

If WotC published another 4e book that took my fancy, I'd buy it (I have the money). If Luke Crane published another BW book, I'd snap it up (I have the money, and I think he writes the best RPG rule books around). But the availability of those books for purchase is pretty orthogonal to the games I'm wanting to run.

The only other game I've run in the past couple of years is Marvel Heroic RP. That's another game that's out of print, another game I ran for players who had no books (they used a cheat sheet I'd written up), and another game I'd happily play for an extended period without worrying about a (non-existent) release schedule.

I think there must be a lot of groups more casual than mine for whom release schedules are equally irrelevant.

 

[Kramodlog]

Nope, followed a link someone left on another thread.

Ashame.

Board games have been growing (even I'm not so securely under a rock that I hadn't heard that), and I think Icv2 said that 'hobby games,' which include (and are dominated by) CCGs are growing...

And RPGs:

[...]a revived RPG category were the leaders in the trend[...]

Also 'are growing' can mean a lot.

For ICv2 growth means:

The hobby games market grew around 15% in 2014, the sixth consecutive year of growth, according to a new report in ICv2’s Internal Correspondence #87. The market is now roughly 2.25 times as large as it was in 2008, the last time the market declined.

 

[Kramodlog]

I'm not sure what "people will just move on" means.

Give their money to other gaming compagnies. My wild guess is that WotC wants money.

 

[pemerton]

But will D&D be fine without a steady stream of income? Are licenses alone enough?

Besides licences, core books provide a steady stream of income.

Producing supplements to generate income is economically irrational if that income is not enough to justify the cost of production.

I posited that Essentials was a "new edition" to avoid the pedantic wankery that follows trying to claim that it's not.

<snip>

But, is anyone actually trying to claim that 3 or 4 new editions in what, 15 years, is a success? Having to sink millions of dollars into development every three years or so is completely worth the ROI brought in by the new edition? Boom and bust is bad business.

From the point of view of gameplay, Essentials was not a new edition. It was a repackaging of the action resolution rules, an editing/errata-ing of the monster books, a re-release of the GMing advice, and a collection of new classes built along slightly different lines but compatible with what had gone before (much like the psionic classes of PHB3).

From the point of view of marketing and commercial ambition, Essentials was a new edition: an attempt, as was stated by WotC at the time, to establish an "evergreen" product line with a clear "on ramp". Contrary to some posts earlier upthread, all 10 Essentials products were released - two Heroes books, the RC, MV and DM Kit, 3 packes of Dungeon Tiles, a dice set, and the Red Box. But they didn't do the desired job - the on ramp didn't work.

I think it's interesting to see how similar the 5e strategy is to the Essentials strategy - a Starter Set designed to feed into evergreen core books. The game itself is also noticeably similar - 5e PCs are very similar, in build and resulting asymmetric balance, to Essentials PCs.

But there are also differences. First, a two-year hiatus has cleared shelves of 4e products, meaning that the "on ramp" is not obscured by the existence of other products, PHBs 1 to 3, etc, clogging the shelves and confusing the market.

Second, the starter set and the PHB use the same rules. (The Essentials Red Box used different rules for some PCs, compared to the Heroes books.)

Third, while the PC build rules are quite similar to Essentials (though presented in a more traditional D&D style and layout than Essentials use of the 4e style), the action resolution mechanics are closer to a stripped-down 3E combined with a cleaned-up AD&D.

5e is like Essentials done properly, without being weighed down by its connections (both mechanically, and marketing-wise) to 4e.

 

[pemerton]

Give their money to other gaming compagnies. My wild guess is that WotC wants money.

Making products costs money.

If WotC aren't producing stuff, presumably that's because they don't think it will generate sufficient returns to justify the cost of production.

 

[Kramodlog]

Besides licences, core books provide a steady stream of income.

After the initial boom that comes with an new edition, they become less hot items and sell less.

You can see where the PHB is this month and where it use to be.

Aug: 5,402
Sep: 5,105
Oct: 4,986
Nov: 3,066
Dec: 3,502
Jan: 4,784
Feb: 1,448

My guess is the fall will continue.

Producing supplements to generate income is economically irrational if that income is not enough to justify the cost of production.

Yup, and it seems Paizo is very rational.

 

[Kramodlog]

Making products costs money.

If WotC aren't producing stuff, presumably that's because they don't think it will generate sufficient returns to justify the cost of production.

Not making stuff is not very profitable either. You pay employees to generate no revenues.

 

[Fildrigar]

We have no idea if the next path will have one. We do not even know if they will release another path this year. None is announced. They could always cancel it like the splatbook was cancelled.

Careful with those pronouns, mate. Obviously, some people know. People who work at Wizards know. Some people who work for 3PPs know. Some playtesters have a pretty good idea what's coming. YOU have no idea. YOU don't know. And that's what really gets your goat, isn't it?

 

[Tony Vargas]

The hobby games market grew around 15% in 2014, the sixth consecutive year of growth, according to a new report in ICv2’s Internal Correspondence #87. The market is now roughly 2.25 times as large as it was in 2008, the last time the market declined.

'Hobby games' includes CCG, which are monsterous money-makers compared to TTRPGs.

Also: direct quotes but no links, yourself?

So, the PHB on Amazon alone has sold 28,275 copies to date.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?403211-DMG-PHB-and-MM-still-in-the-Amazon-top-100-sellers/page2#ixzz3UDXopbxn

Wow. That's a lot less than I'd've thought.
Then again, we're a greying market, maybe brick & mortar FLGS sales were much higher, in total.

 

[Sailor Moon]

Making products costs money.

If WotC aren't producing stuff, presumably that's because they don't think it will generate sufficient returns to justify the cost of production.

So what do they expect will happen? I have never heard of a business that stops generating stuff because it could cost them. In the world of business you have to spend money to make money.

Did Wizards become some newbie company all of a sudden?