Try not to jump to conclusions about what someone says, and be honest about what you consider to be a fact.
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D&D 5E can warlocks be good guys?
- Thread starter PnPgamer
- Start date
I can see situations where a good person takes an evil pact, and simply tries to do the best with it that he can. Perhaps he was suckered into it, then repented, but the contract still binds him. Or he was actually evil once, but had a change of heart. Maybe he actually managed to pull the wool over a fiend's eyes and uses their own power against them.
When I play warlocks, I typically go with the idea that the patron isn't actually a fiend, but something more ambiguous.
I admit the rules as written in 3rd edition don't specifically support that, but I prefer to see rules as a starting point, not necessarily the ending, of the character generation discussion.
When I play warlocks, I typically go with the idea that the patron isn't actually a fiend, but something more ambiguous.
I admit the rules as written in 3rd edition don't specifically support that, but I prefer to see rules as a starting point, not necessarily the ending, of the character generation discussion.
If you have seen the movie "The Little Mermaid":
Ariel, a mermaid princess, makes a pact with Ursula, a sassy drag-queen squid.
Is Ariel, from then on, irredeemably evil?
Well, is she?
If your real-world religion says so, then fine, we're not here to judge your real-world religion.
But your real-world religion doesn't govern how the rest of us play 5E D&D.
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In previous editions, a paladin can transform into a blackguard or anti-paladin.
If a Fiend Pack warlock starts out cruel and deceptive, but then (perhaps inadvertently) commits acts of kindness and honestly, can they experience an equivalent transformation into the opposite class: a peacekey?
Ariel, a mermaid princess, makes a pact with Ursula, a sassy drag-queen squid.
Is Ariel, from then on, irredeemably evil?
Well, is she?
If your real-world religion says so, then fine, we're not here to judge your real-world religion.
But your real-world religion doesn't govern how the rest of us play 5E D&D.
***
In previous editions, a paladin can transform into a blackguard or anti-paladin.
If a Fiend Pack warlock starts out cruel and deceptive, but then (perhaps inadvertently) commits acts of kindness and honestly, can they experience an equivalent transformation into the opposite class: a peacekey?
A variant human commoner named Johnny with 18 points in charisma during character generation, +1 from starting stats and +1 from selecting the feat actor, took the skill perform and became the finest fiddle player in town.
Now, when goblins began to attack the surrounding countryside and no-one had the manpower to stop them, Johnny set out, because from the songs he had heard from the passing bards, there was a wizard nearby who might have been able to help. Johnny got there only to find the Wizard trapped in the basement in the centre of a magic circle. A rotten corpse on the ground close-by with an old tome lying next to it.
The wizard tells Johnny that he was trapped in the circle of magic by his traitorous apprentice who wanted to steal his spellbook, however the apprentice shortly afterwards accidentally misfired a spellin his attemptto finish his master off.
The wizard asks Johnny to free him by reading the counter-incantation from the book on the ground. Johnny replies "yes of course, then afterwards will you can use your powers to help me and my townsfolk right?" The wizard responds impatiently with a "yes, yes, now hurry up".
Johnny reads the words to free the wizard, but much to his dismay, the wizard was a demon that who had lied to him. Now unbound by the circle and fully integrated into the mortal world, the demon didn't have to adhere to the bargain. His first act would be to kill the lad who had freed him.
But Johnny had some wit about him and thinking fast he could recall of tales and songs where folk would challenge demons. So Johnny asked the approaching demon "So I guess you can kill me, but you wouldn't get my soul huh?" The demon stopped and cocked his head, replying "well no, but-" Johnny interrupted, "well then maybe I have something to wager, my soul against your presence here amongst the living". If I win, you can march yourself straight back to hell and if I lose, you get my soul"
The demon smiled, "Very well then, choose the nature of this challenge". Johnny smiled and pulled out his fiddle. Each of them played impressively, but Johnny was the best around and to him it was no surprise to see the demon fail. But before he left the demon said, "you've won the fight, for now, but here, I give a parting gift as originally promised, some of my power to help you and your townsfolk". May it serve you well...
That's how Johnny became a Warlock and removed the goblin threat from his lands. I wonder if the demon ever regretted giving its power to Johnny? Maybe it was hoping to corrupt him. Maybe it still will. Only time can tell...
Now, when goblins began to attack the surrounding countryside and no-one had the manpower to stop them, Johnny set out, because from the songs he had heard from the passing bards, there was a wizard nearby who might have been able to help. Johnny got there only to find the Wizard trapped in the basement in the centre of a magic circle. A rotten corpse on the ground close-by with an old tome lying next to it.
The wizard tells Johnny that he was trapped in the circle of magic by his traitorous apprentice who wanted to steal his spellbook, however the apprentice shortly afterwards accidentally misfired a spellin his attemptto finish his master off.
The wizard asks Johnny to free him by reading the counter-incantation from the book on the ground. Johnny replies "yes of course, then afterwards will you can use your powers to help me and my townsfolk right?" The wizard responds impatiently with a "yes, yes, now hurry up".
Johnny reads the words to free the wizard, but much to his dismay, the wizard was a demon that who had lied to him. Now unbound by the circle and fully integrated into the mortal world, the demon didn't have to adhere to the bargain. His first act would be to kill the lad who had freed him.
But Johnny had some wit about him and thinking fast he could recall of tales and songs where folk would challenge demons. So Johnny asked the approaching demon "So I guess you can kill me, but you wouldn't get my soul huh?" The demon stopped and cocked his head, replying "well no, but-" Johnny interrupted, "well then maybe I have something to wager, my soul against your presence here amongst the living". If I win, you can march yourself straight back to hell and if I lose, you get my soul"
The demon smiled, "Very well then, choose the nature of this challenge". Johnny smiled and pulled out his fiddle. Each of them played impressively, but Johnny was the best around and to him it was no surprise to see the demon fail. But before he left the demon said, "you've won the fight, for now, but here, I give a parting gift as originally promised, some of my power to help you and your townsfolk". May it serve you well...
That's how Johnny became a Warlock and removed the goblin threat from his lands. I wonder if the demon ever regretted giving its power to Johnny? Maybe it was hoping to corrupt him. Maybe it still will. Only time can tell...
I think Ariel illustrates the issue well. Most of us in this thread aren't arguing that warlocks are necessarily evil. It's that there is a price for the power, and most of the time that price is really high. Triton ends up losing his kingdom because of Ariel's bargain. Ariel has to go through a huge number of heroics in order to get out from under her bargain.
If Ariel chose to keep her legs, and walk away, leaving Ursula as Queen of the Sea, then yes, I think a case could be made that Ariel has become evil.
The argument is that a warlock can be good, but cannot be "comfortable" with the bargain. Or the warlock can be evil and be perfectly fine with the terms of the bargain.
The idea of a warlock who is both good and is also perfectly happy with the terms of her bargain, well, that's not really in the spirit of the class.
Well, on one hand you raise an interesting question or schema. On another hand, the 5E Paladin is mostly not in the spirit of the 1E Paladin, and the 5E Monk can go in directions not taken by the 1E Monk, so perhaps the 5E warlock is also *not in the same spirit* as your grandmother's warlock.
I stand by my previous example of a painstakingly-by-the-book LG warlock. That warlock is not just *comfortable* with their patron and their pact; they're *snuggly* with their patron, and they're wholesomely raising a family together, with roses and chocolates and long walks holding hands on each anniversary of saying "I do".
Meanwhile, I have a player running a Good character, a member of the Harpers, with a Great Old One patron. The PC's patron is insatiably curious about the Prime Material Plane, and finds everything on the Prime Material Plane fascinating and bizarre. Perhaps, when it presents its findings to others of its kind, it will receive their equivalent of a PhD, or maybe even a Nobel Prize, for demonstrating that *intelligent life can exist even when limited to three spatial dimensions*.
The patron doesn't have a full understanding of exactly what the warlock is doing, with the power which the patron grants. The patron, however, does understand this much: preventing Tiamat from escaping, seems to be a high priority for the PC. So, again lacking an intuitive understanding of *anything* from a demi-human, Prime-Material-Only perspective, the patron endorses and empowers the warlock's opposition to the Cult of the Dragon.
This PC warlock is *aesthetically* uncomfortable with the pact, in the sense that looking at optical illusions and doing 4-D math generally gives a headache to you or me. The PC is Good and is *ethically* 100% comfortable with the pact. The GOO patron barely understands the basic principles of Prime Material reality, so it would rather trust the warlock's moral compass than impose its own judgements. Here's a quote from the GOO Patron, addressing its research subject:
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So... this "Tiamat" entity will eat you and all of your friends and most of your species, if it escapes from Hell, and you're working to prevent that? Uh, okay, sounds good to me. Now tell me more about this behavior you call "eating", because I get my energy from direct matter/antimatter conversion, and I'm curious how "eating" and "digestion" work. They sound impossibly complicated, not to mention dangerous. Also, what is "sleep"? And can you PLEASE try again to explain "dreams"? Your description of "dreams" sounds like you CAN interact with alternate-possibility timelines, but only with very high distortion. Is that how it works?
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EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
I can get behind that sentiment--for "Ariel-like" pacts where a good person makes a deal with a bad entity. For ones like the Titania pact, or (for example) Wynne in Dragon Age who (essentially) has a pact with a spirit of faith, it seems hard to justify any accusations of evil--the power is willingly given by an entity with good or at least non-evil intentions.
So, really, we have a sort of two-way street here. The warlock's behavior, and the pact granter's behavior. If the warlock is (as noted) "comfortable" with a bargain regardless of what is asked, and especially if the pact granter is a known evil being, the warlock is probably evil. If the warlock is "uncomfortable" (which I take to mean not just "I don't like it," but *acting* on their dislike of it) with a pact with a non-good being, or careful/considerate about a pact with a non-evil being, then the warlock may be good or neutral but probably isn't evil.
Making a pact with an evil fiend or deity is always evil. The end does not justify the means. If a character unknowingly does so, then it wasn't evil, but it was still a mistake with negative of consequences for him and others.
Hi SirAntoine. I was just wondering that if hypothetically you had a player who really wanted to play a warlock who was good or at least some form of neutral, was tricked into his pact, how would you treat them as their DM? What sort of obstacles would they need to overcome? Would you sometimes try to tempt them with extra power? Maybe have them struggle with their sanity? When I'm a player as opposed to a DM, I try not to worry so much about how easy my character has it, because I find that if they're struggling in their life, it makes their story all the more colourful.
Would you allow a player to play a good warlock who was tricked into their pact, so long as they were actually questing to get rid of their pact?
I always got the impression from 3.5 that warlocks only alignment restriction was that they had to be some form of chaotic? Or maybe it was some form of chaotic OR some form of evil. I know the ONLY type of good you could play as a Warlock in 3.5 was Chaotic Good.
Would you allow a player to play a good warlock who was tricked into their pact, so long as they were actually questing to get rid of their pact?
I always got the impression from 3.5 that warlocks only alignment restriction was that they had to be some form of chaotic? Or maybe it was some form of chaotic OR some form of evil. I know the ONLY type of good you could play as a Warlock in 3.5 was Chaotic Good.
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