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D&D 5E can warlocks be good guys?

Mallus

Legend
Without needing to study to learn magic like a wizard.
Note, as other posters have pointed out, this assertion isn't actually borne out by the text. Warlocks learn magic via personal relationships/pacts with supernatural entities --which, BTW is the way a lot of Western folklore describes magic working, making 5e warlocks much closer to the common depiction of magicians.

Nowhere does it say it's easier (or even strongly imply that it is). Hell, making a pact with a devil that benefits you without totally screwing you over sounds like difficult work. It strongly implies years of arduous legal training!

Contrast warlocks with clerics. Their spells are directly granted by divine entities, but still not described as easy. There are prayer and rituals to learn, and, presumably, plenty of made-up theology and made-up variations on Church Latin, etc.

Now if you want to decree that warlocks essentially cheat their way to arcane power in your own homebrewed stetting, well cool beans! From a game design standpoint you'll probably want to reflect that in the mechanics, ie have it actually be easy for warlocks to acquire spells & powers, gain levels, and so on. With a set of counterbalancing restrictions & disadvantages.

Or you could leave the notion that warlocks have it easier as an in-setting prejudice held by wizards, something that adds flavor & potential conflict without requiring it to be an objective fact (which opens up a can of unintended consequence worms).

Then there's the whole metagame angle. From a player's perspective, becoming a wizard and becoming a warlock (or fighter, rogue, paladin, etc.) all require the same amount of effort, ie you chose a class.
 
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Mallus

Legend
They're the "3e Fighters" of the 5e caster world, locked into specific options. (Fortunately they are not as weak as 3e Fighters were!).
This sounds about right. Most 5e warlocks will have a strong offensive shtick + neat little powers. They're "full spellcasters" technically, but not really in practice.

From levels 1 through 10, warlocks have *2* spells per combat encounter -- and less if they use a utility spell prior. For most warlocks, that means Hex + a (non-concentration) defensive spell.

Overall, it's a well-designed class that favors focus over flexibility.
 


I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
1.) Now I want to offer my players a genuine "shortcut" warlock: you can start at level 10 if you'll only "eat this kitten!"

I'm thinking you could have a genuine "upgrade" as a magic item. You "attune" yourself to your patron and in response gain greater and greater power. An attunement means that it's kind of self-balancing. "Oh, I would wield that powerful wand of magic, only my imp is offering me better stuff." And as a magic item, it can screw over the PC's as much as a DM wants! :)
 

SirAntoine

Banned
Banned
Note, as other posters have pointed out, this assertion isn't actually borne out by the text. Warlocks learn magic via personal relationships/pacts with supernatural entities --which, BTW is the way a lot of Western folklore describes magic working, making 5e warlocks much closer to the common depiction of magicians.

Nowhere does it say it's easier (or even strongly imply that it is). Hell, making a pact with a devil that benefits you without totally screwing you over sounds like difficult work. It strongly implies years of arduous legal training!

Contrast warlocks with clerics. Their spells are directly granted by divine entities, but still not described as easy. There are prayer and rituals to learn, and, presumably, plenty of made-up theology and made-up variations on Church Latin, etc.

Now if you want to decree that warlocks essentially cheat their way to arcane power in your own homebrewed stetting, well cool beans! From a game design standpoint you'll probably want to reflect that in the mechanics, ie have it actually be easy for warlocks to acquire spells & powers, gain levels, and so on. With a set of counterbalancing restrictions & disadvantages.

Or you could leave the notion that warlocks have it easier as an in-setting prejudice held by wizards, something that adds flavor & potential conflict without requiring it to be an objective fact (which opens up a can of unintended consequence worms).

Then there's the whole metagame angle. From a player's perspective, becoming a wizard and becoming a warlock (or fighter, rogue, paladin, etc.) all require the same amount of effort, ie you chose a class.

Ask the designers about these things, which you say the text doesn't suggest. I was satisfied with the text, myself.
 





S

Sunseeker

Guest
If he knows the patron is evil, it makes him evil. It is an evil act just to make that pact.

In a Biblical sense, sure. Like technically speaking in the song "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" Johnny is damned to hell because it IS a sin to deal with the devil AT ALL, regardless of if you win or lose at fiddling.

However, that's a subjective moral view on the basis of a single religion. D&D adventurers deal with evil beings all the time, sometimes they run quests for them, sometimes that involves making a deal. Does your entire party become evil for that? Maybe according the Holy Grand Chancery of *citystate*, but in the eyes of everyone? Does it shift their entire alignment?

This is why I still don't pick alignments for my characters. They're "good" or "evil" insomuch that they do nice things most of the time or bad things most of the time, but I don't force them to conform to the table or someone else's definition of "good and evil".

This is why I still don't like the alignment system at all. Morality is subjective. Drow are the good guys for Lolth. For everyone else they're not. Games that make everything black and white, where the smallest of bad deeds means you're evil are hugely un-fun for me.
 

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