D&D 5E So what exactly is Wizards working on?

[Sacrosanct]

sigh...no Manchu, that's not what I or the article was stating. I'm not sure what your affinity is for strawman arguments, but they don't help discussion. Not the article, nor myself, said that there should be no more products. I believe there shouldn't be too many new products. That was the point. And that's completely different than saying no new products at all should be released.

 

[Manchu]

Dude what is your problem? I didn't say either you or the article you linked argued there should be no new products:

the link posted by Sacrosanct shows that WotC should not print more 5E material because more materials will make customers choose not to choose, i.e., to not buy any(more) 5E products

Note I did not post "should not print anymore 5E material." I understand no one in any of these threads has been arguing that 5E should not print anymore 5E material, even those who have said they would personally be fine with that if it was the case.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

[MENTION=6778044]Ilbranteloth[/MENTION]

Nice post, I fully agree and have posted the same concept with less examples elsewhere -- BUT what has it got to do with the post you quoted?

Meanwhile, here are my thoughts on the topic you are bringing up:

Thanks!

I probably should have shortened the quote. I just didn't want to edit out the example that led to:

"Expanding their line does give the customer more choices -- but it is not driving down their sales. Quite the opposite. "

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...ly-is-Wizards-working-on/page21#ixzz3UETVjhWM

Driving up sales does not necessarily make a profitable, or even liquid company. WotC's release schedule has to produce profits, not just sales.

It's also relevant to the entire conversation. The licensing is entirely relevant too (including farming out some of the core work like the adventure paths so far). But it has it's own pitfalls.

Incidentally, we stopped by the local gaming shop recently, and it did make me a little sad not to see more stuff. But, back when I sold off my collection (about 10 years ago I think), I had a near complete collection of everything ever released for D&D or 3rd parties for D&D, not to mention non D&D stuff. I think I calculated over 250 linear feet of books. I still have the copy of Heroic Worlds I used as a checklist...

I've been a bit more selective this time around in what I'm repurchasing as far as older material, but I've bought every 5e release except Rise of Tiamat so far. And I'm sure I'll get that eventually. I'm not using the adventures, but I do mine them for situations, encounters, and locations I like, plus the little bit of Realmslore.

So I totally get the sentiment, but I also totally get why we are where we are in terms of releases so far. I am so excited about the future of this edition, and love each little bit that has unfolded so far, such as Unearthed Arcana, Sage Advice, the online comics, the computer releases (even though I probably won't have time to play them), etc. etc. There has been a ton of multi-channel support, but the usual sentiment of "they haven't release enough stuff I want" remains.

We're on the second major AP with 22 short adventures and 3 hardcover books worth of adventures within the first year, not to mention the core books, the basic set, DM screen (actually the 3rd one is due now), computer games, new computer games, novels, minis, spell cards, and only one real miss in Codename: Morningstar. That's a TON of material and we haven't even completed the first full year. If that's not supporting the new product, what is? Even better, it's been a huge success.

I think the short adventures are released through the AL to avoid cannibalizing the main adventure, and bring new people into the game. It might not be perfect, but I suspect that the team is ecstatic about what they've accomplished.

I guess what I've been saying all along is just give it some time. I don't think this is the planned release schedule forever, it's just going to take time to ramp up to that schedule, whatever it is.

Ilbranteloth

 

[Manchu]

@Ilbranteloth

Fair enough -- Warlord's sale and proifits have(or at least appear to have) gone up as the company has expanded its line over the last five years. So ... not much of a deal breaker in terms of the examples I was using. But sure, it is important to note the difference between sales and profits.

As far as "support" -- yeah this point has come up in one of these threads and I'll just say it is not really a matter of "support" (for me at least), so I have no interest in arguing over the definition of that term. What I want are more physical books. I don't believe WotC is going to produce them and I understand (hopefully as demonstrated) why they probably don't want to.

That said, I really don't think it's a make or break issue for WotC if they did expand the line slightly more prolifically. I don't think it's make or break for D&D either. D&D as a brand will do fine with three core books on retailers' shelves and the once-in-a-great-while AP to keep them there. And if WotC did more, it would hardly sink the ship. It just wouldn't contribute to the $100,000s scope book Hasbro wants WotC to keep. RPG hobbyists who want better quality/more frequent releases will have to look elsewhere.

So in that sense, 5E is not really a game changer.

 

[pemerton]

My bet is, the real purpose of releasing APs at all is to get even more people to buy the core books.

The point of releasing APs is also to get people to buy those APs and play them.

That's what the online Basic PDFs are for: to enable people to pick up an AP and play it without needing to deal with a PHB, DMG or MM.

It won't last 10 years with a slow release schedule. People will have either moved on to something better supported or gone back to older editions and retroclones.

What's the "it"?

Given that Monopoly is mostly played by children (and their parents), the people paying Monopoly this year are mostly not the same people as those who were playing Monopoly 10 years ago. But it has lasted more than 10 years!

What's the reason for thinking that WotC won't be selling PHBs in 10 years time just because many of those who bought a PHB today aren't still playing the game in 10 years time? The attrition rate in many hobbies is pretty high, and I think RPGs are one with a relatively high attrition rate.

Let's do a quick list of possible products.

<snip>

Some of those would have have multiple books that branch out so you are loaded with books that people would buy. Those are just ideas off the top of my head.

And off the top off your head, do you have any reason to think that it would be economically sensible for WotC to publish those books?

 

[delericho]

Also note that for the same reasons, launching a new edition is far, far more expensive than reprinting an existing edition. Another reason why I think this edition will last a long time.

There's an awful lot of truth in the post I've quoted, but I just wanted to comment on this one thing.

While it's true that launching a new edition is more expensive, it's also vastly more profitable. The few numbers I was able to find suggested that a PHB sells about ten times the number of copies that even the very best-selling supplement does (~700k 3.0e PHBs vs ~70k Psionics Handbooks).

What's more, with a much larger print run the unit cost is reduced and a larger book generally has a greater margin per copy as well.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if 5e hasn't already made greater profit than the entirety of the D&D RPG in the 'Essentials' period.

(I also wouldn't be surprised if we now didn't see any non-adventure supplements in print for several years, after which we might see a single "(1e) Unearthed Arcana"/"Player's Handbook 2" type book. But, in the meantime, the two 'storylines' per year, each with a small, free player's guide specific to that storyline. Focus on keeping the game "hot" through the twice-yearly Events but keep the game essentially as-is so it's easy for new players to jump in.)

 

[Reynard]

(I also wouldn't be surprised if we now didn't see any non-adventure supplements in print for several years, after which we might see a single "(1e) Unearthed Arcana"/"Player's Handbook 2" type book. But, in the meantime, the two 'storylines' per year, each with a small, free player's guide specific to that storyline. Focus on keeping the game "hot" through the twice-yearly Events but keep the game essentially as-is so it's easy for new players to jump in.)

That may be, but I think what it might do is train people to not rely on WotC at all. The first time a group decides they don't like an AP and there are no alternatives, they will either stop playing D&D, stop purchasing things for D&D or turn to other publishers. Once they have done that, whether those folks continue to be players, they are no longer customers and therefore lost to WotC. It seems like a strange model for TTRPGs. It actually kind of reminds me of the way MMOs work (no, I am NOT saying 5E is a video game) in that there are small patches on a regular basis (the monthly columns) and a couple big updates a year (the APs and players guides, free or otherwise). The thing is, TTRPGs are are MMOs and I am not sure a similar strategy will work.

 

[DaveDash]

I think the argument that more products turns off more players is absurd. Pathfinder would be dead in the water long ago if that argument held any scrap of truth. In fact I find myself wandering over to the pathfinder section in hobby stores all the time, meanwhile I don't even notice small product selections of other RPGs and never bother with them.

I also hate the lack of products for D&D, I especially hate the "DIY" mentality behind the DMG, and general lack of crunch and support for the game. But I acknowledge 100% that too many books have diminishing returns, and that WoTC cannot make money out of it.

Pathfinder I would guess makes money out if their hugely successful societies system and subscription pricing models. They also get more content out through PDF (lower cost), and they sell direct. They also have a reputation of creating great APs which people probably buy just for the sake of owning them. WoTC do not have that brand reputation.

 

[delericho]

That may be, but I think what it might do is train people to not rely on WotC at all.

Sure. Is that such a bad thing? (Serious question.)

The first time a group decides they don't like an AP and there are no alternatives, they will either stop playing D&D, stop purchasing things for D&D or turn to other publishers.

Sort of. My guess is that they're producing APs faster than most groups will consume them (though that remains to be seen - I don't know how long a 1-15 campaign will take to play). That being the case, once they've got a few out there that will be less of an issue - people will be able to go back and do one of the ones they've missed.

Once they have done that, whether those folks continue to be players, they are no longer customers and therefore lost to WotC.

I think the hope is that they'll be lost for 6 months, but when the next Event hits they'll be tempted to come back and at least have a look - in the same way that so many people who skipped 4e were at least tempted to take a look at 5e.

It's not without its flaws and its risks, of course. But then, what is?

 

[Reynard]

Sure. Is that such a bad thing? (Serious question.)



Sort of. My guess is that they're producing APs faster than most groups will consume them (though that remains to be seen - I don't know how long a 1-15 campaign will take to play). That being the case, once they've got a few out there that will be less of an issue - people will be able to go back and do one of the ones they've missed.



I think the hope is that they'll be lost for 6 months, but when the next Event hits they'll be tempted to come back and at least have a look - in the same way that so many people who skipped 4e were at least tempted to take a look at 5e.

It's not without its flaws and its risks, of course. But then, what is?

I still haven't quite figured out where WotC is trying to go with this edition from a marketting perspective. It seems like they managed to really put together a great version of the game that embraces the best of its various editions. then they put out a superb starter set that harkens back to the Red Box with a truly excellent adventure that combines sandboxes and dungeons and plots and freedom. And then they just stopped. They farmed out two crappy adventure paths so far (crappy enough I am not going to buy the third) and instea dof Dragon or Dungeon they are giving us unfinished alpha rules. I just don't get it.

But, you're right. After a few days of going back and forth, I have come to accept that WotC can't or won't provide what I want from them. So I have a great foundation (the Core) on which to build. No amount of complaining is going to change that, right?