D&D 5E Combining the sorcerer and wizard spell lists?

[MoonSong]

Foresight affects a "willing creature" at Touch range; or, with Twin, a pair of willing creatures. Why are you bringing up the prohibition on twinning Self spells?

Sorry, thought it was like contingency...

 

[Leatherhead]

Ok, show me how to make a 100% utility caster that is useful and not make your party regret they didn't bring a wizard, a charming high level illusionist, an effective gish, an eldritch artisan, a friend to all living things sorcerer, a sorcerous thief, a caster killer sorcerer and a hunter sorcerer. All effective at all levels. And that is without entering into longer term effects or reality shaping.

I'm actually working on such a thing!

As it turns out, sorcerers are extremely proficient in manipulating dice rolls.

 

[Quickleaf]

The sorcerer is a different approach to magic, magic can be mundane, easy and fun, and very easy to be irresponsible with. Or it can be something to fear, not voluntary and a curse. Neither is possible with the wizard, but the sorcerer makes magic something that could happen anywhere to anyone, something you can enjoy or something you want to get rid of. The magic is hard of the wizard isn't conductive to either. (A curse? and this curse makes you memmoruze spells every morning and prevents you from burning the spell book?)

I couldn't understand some of this, but I'll reply to what I did understand...

To be clear, I don't think the concept is weak, I think the mechanical execution is weak. What about the sorcerer's mechanical design makes them "easy to be irresponsible with" or "something to fear" (that the wizard doesn't get)?

But also there are characters in pop culture that make sense as sorcerers but no wizards:

Sabrina, more so in the comics and the Disney series.
Elsa
Samantha
Jenny (From I dream of Jenny)
The xmen in general
And the wizard doesn't really fit legend Merlin or Gandalf either.

I understand that there's a story argument, but to justify a class you also need mechanics that are unique and back up that story. For example, how many of those examples use material components for their powers? None, right? So if those are your examples for sorcerers, then arguably sorcerer spells shouldn't require material components. Period. Instead they use components like any other wizard/warlock, and arcane foci like any other wizard/warlock. This is a smalle example of design not reinforcing story.

 

[CapnZapp]

I've never really grasped the sorcerer class since its inception. What unique concept justifies a sorcerer that isn't already embodied in a wizard?

My impression of 5e's answers to that question thus far lead me to believe the sorcerer received less iterations of design than the other classes. To wit, here are the answers 5e seems to give to the question:

Sorcerers get the enhance ability spell & some other randomly chosen elemental themed spells.

Sorcerers get wild magic & dragon magic.

Sorcerers can alter their spells on the fly.

IIRC Sorcerers we also meant to occupy a "mid point" in design between the spell-limited warlock and spell-abundant wizard.

I would argue that the entire sorcerer class could desperately use a solid re-design to make it something really unique that stands on its own two feet. Something like a domain-based mage, merged with some of its existing features, and adding some kind of over-channel/exhaustion rules for pushing your limits might be a good direction to take its re-design.

Agreed, but you forgot perhaps the most relevant reason for having the sorcerer:

It's been there since third ed.

In third ed, there was a great reason for playing a sorcerer: not having to deal with vancian fire n forget magics.

Since then... No, I haven't seen a compelling reason for having it, so, as I said, I agree.

 

[Jeff Albertson]

But check out warding wind in Princes of the Apocalypse: it's for Bards, Druids, Sorcerers, but not wizards.

I thank ya for that list, btw. Honestly, the sorcerer list seems like an arbitrary subset of the wizard list... but then I'm not really convinced that the sorcerer received the same degree of design-love that some other classes did.

I can sort of see what you mean, same for the Warlock, feels a bit like they were contrived/forced in. Both are relatively new, in the legacy department.

 

[steeldragons]

Well, you could play a wizard, choose a thematic limited set of spells, and just play up the social difference between your PC and other wizards. That definition of a "sorcerer" doesn't go deep enough to differentiating it from a wizard, and probably is why people are complaining about the sorcerer's nonsensical spell list.

In the 5e PHB, they say "No one chooses sorcery; the power chooses the sorcerer" and "Magic is a part of every sorcerer, suffusing body, mind, and spirit with a latent power that waits to be tapped."

The things that leap out as class design precepts to me are that...

• Magic / "The Power" (of the sort sorcerers wield) has a will of its own, not sentience necessarily, but some kind of tie into destiny. Like the Force. This suggests all sorcerers should have a mechanic akin to Wild Magic Surges, something that can express itself unexpectedly as a manifestation of "The Power."
• Magic "suffuses" a sorcerer, meaning they are walking magic sponges or at least they radiate magic if someone casts a detect magic on them. This suggests that magic resistance, detecting magic, discharging pure magic, and/or dispelling or absorbing magic should be features of any sorcerer. And possibly indicates that the sorcerer should appear "magical" when casting spells.
• A sorcerer's magic is a "latent power, waiting to be tapped." That suggests some sort of exertion/exhaustion/over-channel ability should be available to any sorcerer. It also suggests that sorcerers don't need to prepare spells (which is already the case). And maybe it suggests some sort of buildup of energies if a sorcerer doesn't cast spells?

From this I get the idea that a sorcerer isn't totally in control of his or her magic, which is just waiting to burst out. That should have a mechanical representation. I also would assume that a sorcerer should relate differently to magic than other casters, whether that's confounding detect magic cast upon them, detecting magic at-will, being immune (or especially vulnerable) to dispel magic, or something more interesting. Since magic seems to be linked to the sorcerer's very essence, I also get the impresssion a sorcerer should be able to push their limits of Spellcasting at the expense of their well-being.

i like a lot of this line of thinking and it gets me heading in the design-direction that, perhaps, the issue isn't that the Sorcerer has its own spell list or that it "needs" to have access to "moar" Wizard spells or that combining the Sorcerer and Wizard lists is the way to go...

But, just maybe, the key to making [crtain] sorcerer fans happy is to eliminate a Sorcerer spell list entirely. Make the sorcerer class the "Powers" class. Make them, as they already are, the Metamagic Class. No spell list required.

Set up some kind of mechanics -not "spell points", per se, but something along those lines or maybe something borrowing from Supers RPGs and the development of innate superpowers - that let's the PC TRY to do different things with their magic. As they gain levels, they gain more "stunts", their energy blasts can do more damage or be more specialized/specific/exacting.

Like...at least in this [very rough] pencil sketch in m head at the moment:
Class: Sorcerer
Subclasses: Sorcerous Origin -whatever the frig you want/however you want to flavor it: Ancestry, Wild Magic, Psychic Powers, Dragons, Elementals/Genies, Shadow, Light, OD'ed on magic mushroom spores, "everybody [or only certain folks] in the world is magic", whatever...

At 1st level: Arcane Sense: Innate Detect Magic.
Select Two "Effects" [each defined/limited to the effects comparable to cantrip or 1st level spells]:
Alter Perceptions [charm]
Attacking Blast [comparable cantrip/1st damage to multiple targets: burning hands, icing hands, sleep, color spray, however you want to envision it]
Attacking Bolt [comparable 1st level damage to single target, the "damage type" is really just a matter of flavor. So if you want "fire, ice, psychic, ripping stones out of the ground that fly at the targets, etc... is really up to the player & DM to decide/agree upon.]
Control Environment [make a fog cloud, change the temperature, shape stone, plants, maybe control animals, etc...]
Defensive Shield [could be an actual forcefield/Shield spell or model Protection from Evil or create blocks of rock to shoot up out of the ground or even "cloaking"/blending/invisibility, whatever...Something that limits damage or negates attacks.]
Ensnare [entangle with vegetation, lock feet in stone, encase in ice, the Crimson Bands of Citorrak, wutevuh...]
Illusion [personal, visual, audial, environmental, etc...]
Mind Control [empathy or detect thoughts up to full on telepathy and domination]
Enhanced Movement [limited to max speed of 10' per level, however the mode is flavored: hover 3" off the ground, full levitation or flight, ride waves of earth or ice chutes, etc...]
...etc...

At 3rd level: Arcane Overextension [or some better name, obviously]: however that "push their boundaries" flavor gets mechanically defined.
Select Two Metamagics. You gain 1 additional Metamagic "stunt" every other level thereafter [5th, 7th, etc...]

At 6th level: Arcane Syphon: absorbing/syphoning off magical effects, can only "dispel/suspend" magic of a level equal to their own, but then need to rechannel the spell levels into an Effect or sustain damage.
Select another Effect that you have realized/figured out how to expand your powers.

At 14th & 18th level: Select 1 additional Effect at each + other stuff that somehow increases their existing powers.

 

[steeldragons]

Or, heck, how about, instead of individual "spell-like effects", they are "embodiments" of the Wizardly Traditions. Tie it in more closely with how 5e D&D defines its Arcane Magic so the mechanics of it don't feel so foreign.

So, the Sorcerer chooses [at 1st leve]: Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy or Transmutation. All of their effects must relate/duplicate/be comparable to some spell effect from those respective schools.

At higher levels, you get to create effects/choose additional traditions that your magic can emulate.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION] Yes, you got what I was arguing! Your examples of innate detect magic, arcane siphon, and arcane overextension are spot on. The only things I would add are a nixing material components from the class altogether (and therefor arcane foci), and building in some kind of spell botching rules (maybe on a natural 1 to attack?) reflecting the uncontrolled nature of Sorcerer magic.

There is the spell point variant in the DMG, and a powers system certainly would make sense for Sorcerers, but 5e seems to treat variant spellcasting systems as, well, variants rather than class defining features.

Something akin to your second approach seems more appropriate to 5e. I'm actually working up my own hack of the Sorcerer, and I'm basically making it the "assemble your spell list with mini-spell list modules" caster. So there is no singular Sorcerer spell list. Unlike your example using the existing spell schools, which I deemed felt to wizardly, I opted to define my own "spell themes" (e.g. Artifice, Curse, Death, Earth, Flame, Frost, Light, Storm, Warding, Water, etc). And then a Sorcerer assembles their spell list by choosing, say, 4 themes at 1st level, another theme at 4th level, and another at 10th level (mirroring cantrip acquisition).

Then I might give each "spell theme" a minor ability / restriction / appearance change, reflecting the sort of self-volition / creative urge of that particular brand of Sorcerer magic.

 

[MoonSong]

I think in general that there's no need to redo the wheel, just have versatile spells, more Enhance Ability and less Fireball. For example a spell I'm homebrewing is all about warping space. At low levels you can use it to wrap space around an object so you can access it anytime you want, at higher levels you can use it to wrap around asingle creature, then many more creatures and then to shape the inside so it is like a pocket house, at 9th level you can make a pocket so big that if you concentrate long enough it becomes a new demiplane of existence. Or another one a cantrip that creates and shapes ice, but you can cast it as a 1st level spell and you can craft temporal simple items with it, as you rise the level, you can create bigger and more complex items, ending with living constructs and fortresses at 8th/9th level, again concentrate long enough and they become permanent. All of these have special functions if you metamagic them.

 

[Quickleaf]

I think in general that there's no need to redo the wheel, just have versatile spells, more Enhance Ability and less Fireball. For example a spell I'm homebrewing is all about warping space. At low levels you can use it to wrap space around an object so you can access it anytime you want, at higher levels you can use it to wrap around asingle creature, then many more creatures and then to shape the inside so it is like a pocket house, at 9th level you can make a pocket so big that if you concentrate long enough it becomes a new demiplane of existence. Or another one a cantrip that creates and shapes ice, but you can cast it as a 1st level spell and you can craft temporal simple items with it, as you rise the level, you can create bigger and more complex items, ending with living constructs and fortresses at 8th/9th level, again concentrate long enough and they become permanent. All of these have special functions if you metamagic them.

Well...that's still reworking the wheel, isn't it? Just coming at it from a different angle?

It depends on which you think is the path of least resistance: Re-working spells or re-working the class?

But the argument that the sorcerer needs *something* to better distinguish it from a wizard still stands.