D&D 4E The Best Thing from 4E

What are your favorite 4E elements?


Tony Vargas

Legend
If I have one card in my hand and I keep playing it every encounter, I will feel like a one-trick pony.
I could see that. If, for instance, you were playing a 1e fighter carrying nothing but a longsword. You've got one thing you can do - attack. 2e might let you have a non-weapon proficiency as well, C&T some combat option, and 3e might give you another such option (or make you better at one) for completing a feat tree. 4e gave you combat options, two at-wills, an encounter & a daily at 1st, and you steadily gained more - and, there was page 42 if you wanted to further improvise.

Characterizing all that as '1 card in your hand' is, well, it's a /very/ poor analogy, let's put it that way.

For our group it was not about doing something cool, it was about doing the same cool thing every encounter. It never felt like that for my players in 3e or 2e, without 'cards in their hands' they felt 'mentally' free to do what they desired.
You can say that having nothing felt like having something. You can say that the sky looks green to you, and the earth just feels flat. Throw in a qualifier like that and you can say whatever you want no matter how glaringly at odds with the facts it may be.

Fact is, martial characters had more options in 4e, not fewer. Encounter powers were part of that. They gave them more things to do, they did not take away options.

Disagree. That is your perception of my use of the word 'perceived'.
So you did not mean to imply that the 'perceived' problems of 3e were in any way comparable to the 'perceived' problems of 4e. I'm glad to hear it.


I do not choose to limit my use of the word evolution to 'revolutionary changes'.
Good for you, since that's not what the word means. Revolutionary change being much faster.

Substitute whatever word makes more sense to you. But the game evolved (changed) because of external and internal influences.
Changed, certainly. Evolved, which implies change in a certain direction, not in every case. 3e->4e could be called evolutionary change, arguably revolutionary. 4e->5e is harder to characterize as evolutionary change, rather, it was atavistic, the re-emergence of past traits - still change, of course, but changing back rather than evolving. That should not be surprising, as that was a big part of its goals.
 
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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
As would I if I were so inclined.

Same here, though if it were intended to be a war along the lines of WW1/2, the Punic Wars, the US Civil War, etc. I might break it up into campaigns, years, major battles, or some other sort of thing.

Maybe even go for a "meta skill challenge." That is, each major "battle"/"year"/divison is a skill challenge that can be won, lost, or drawn (perhaps a total of 6-10 quick rolls), and between battles/years/etc. you figure out resources won and lost and how things feed into future challenges. Then you appraise the whole war and look at how the battles went; if you've fought for 3 "years" (or whatever) and won substantially or secured key victories, whether through brute strength or cunning action, you win the war. It's also conceivable that the war could simply find no victors (what with the whole many rolls trending to the mean thing), which is a result not uncommon in real wars, e.g. WW1 was "won" by the Allies but the victory came at pretty high cost (to everyone except the US, of course, given that we weren't fighting on our own soil) and didn't even resolve several of the underlying issues. Similarly, the US Civil War was primarily ended by the South having destroyed its economy (driving up the sale of cotton until buyers were forced to look elsewhere), its armies run ragged and devoid of food and supplies.

I could see running First and Second Bull Run(/Manassas), Antietam, Fredricksburg, Shiloh, Gettysburg, Vicksburg, and Appomattox as the "key" battles of the war (not that there weren't others, just that the list started to get overly long!) As long as the "skill challenge battles" weren't overly complex, and had interesting (and useful) interludes of reconnaissance, planning, sabotage, and (possibly) diplomacy, I could see this actually being a pretty cool experience. Particularly if the interludes impressed on the players the weight and horror of war, rather than glossing over it all to make it seem like just an exercise of numbers and probability.
 

Sadras

Legend
Characterizing all that as '1 card in your hand' is, well, it's a /very/ poor analogy, let's put it that way.

It isn't if I'm actually sitting with power cards.

Fact is, martial characters had more options in 4e, not fewer. Encounter powers were part of that. They gave them more things to do, they did not take away options.

Encounters were more of the same 'one-tricks' that could be pulled off in any and every encounter. Why would one need encounters and dailies in previous editions when one could declare any action they needed in earlier editions. There was no card system, there was an auto-attack and ANYTHING you want.
If I'm sitting with cards, I'm more inclined to use those cards.

Changed, certainly. Evolved, which implies change in a certain direction, not in every case. 3e->4e could be called evolutionary change, arguably revolutionary. 4e->5e is harder to characterize as evolutionary change, rather, it was atavistic, the re-emergence of past traits - still change, of course, but changing back rather than evolving. That should not be surprising, as that was a big part of its goals.

Agreed.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I could see that. If, for instance, you were playing a 1e fighter carrying nothing but a longsword. You've got one thing you can do - attack. 2e might let you have a non-weapon proficiency as well, C&T some combat option, and 3e might give you another such option (or make you better at one) for completing a feat tree. 4e gave you combat options, two at-wills, an encounter & a daily at 1st, and you steadily gained more - and, there was page 42 if you wanted to further improvise.

Characterizing all that as '1 card in your hand' is, well, it's a /very/ poor analogy, let's put it that way.

Fully agreed. I've not played much beyond the early levels of 4e (much to my lament), but you never had less than three "cards in your hand" so to speak, and working with your allies means you could treat their contributions as invisible fourth/fifth/etc. "cards" as well.

You can say that having nothing felt like having something. You can say that the sky looks green to you, and the earth just feels flat. Throw in a qualifier like that and you can say whatever you want no matter how glaringly at odds with the facts it may be.

Fact is, martial characters had more options in 4e, not fewer. Encounter powers were part of that. They gave them more things to do, they did not take away options.

Ehh. You're taking a rather extreme stance here. I don't think Sadras's position is nearly that unsubtle and subjectivist.

Because, "fact is," there is such a thing as being blinded by options. It may be no fault of the game per se, but it is entirely possible to see a sheet full of facts and feel like those facts are the precise, delineated extent of what you can do, with zero room for interpretation, creativity, or improvisation. Of course, it is provably untrue that 4e prevents any of these things--references in the core books, as well as Dungeon and Dragon articles, can demonstrate the designers' explicitly stated intent on that regard--but just because the books make that clear doesn't mean that people will grok that that is clear.

An analogy I have used elsewhere is that 4e is like a toolbox of specialized tools, and you get to have fun seeing what novel uses you can come up with for them; older-style D&D, especially the earliest versions where character sheets were sparse at best, were like having few very general tools and needing to pull from the environment itself to flesh out the additional features you needed. Both can leave someone feeling "trapped." Someone used to the former feels stuck, not having enough ways to interact with the environment to start with; someone used to the latter feels stuck, like the tools they have are the only tools they're allowed to use.

It's a really frustrating problem from both ends, because for whatever reason, if you change the size of the toolset people start with, somehow the adaptive-creative process shuts down...no matter which direction you move (larger or smaller toolsets). It's not JUST a "your conception is wrong, change" it problem, but it's also not JUST "the game needs to be different" either. It's more about presentation, communication, and what people are comfortable playing. Perhaps that, alone, is enough to explain it: people feel uncomfortable with toolboxes that aren't the size they're used to, and that lack of comfort leads to turtling up and refusing to be creative because creativity is dangerous when you don't know what you're doing.

Good for you, since that's not what the word means. Revolutionary change being much faster.

In general, I agree. Revolution connotes sudden or violent change; evolution connotes a slow, even imperceptible change.

Changed, certainly. Evolved, which implies change in a certain direction, not in every case. 3e->4e could be called evolutionary change, arguably revolutionary. 4e->5e is harder to characterize as evolutionary change, rather, it was atavistic, the re-emergence of past traits - still change, of course, but changing back rather than evolving. That should not be surprising, as that was a big part of its goals.

Now, unfortunately, *that* is a misuse of the term. "Evolution," despite the common perception, has no favored direction. Evolution is adaptation. Adaptation only considers the situation of the moment; it has no moral center, no higher calling, no contextual significance beyond (in a biological sense) "this contributed to not-death, or avoided death." Atavism and loss of previously-acquired adaptation is perfectly in keeping with the meaning of "evolution." For instance, cetaceans lost their limbs and cave-dwelling creatures lose their eyes or pigmentation, but both are evolution despite being "changing back" as you put it.

4e evolved in a climate where selective pressures favored (1) solving the LFQW problem, (2) addressing the unstated but clearly present "class tiers" and particularly the problem of "dead weight" (or totally overshadowed) classes, and (3) addressing the fact that play only held to typical campaign expectations for a very small range of levels (generally 1-6 or 1-8, certainly no higher than 1-10). Several of these issues were right at the forefront of the designers' minds, and we have explicit statements from Rob Heinsoo on basically all of them--and how much he had to fight internal efforts to prevent these solutions from happening.

5e evolved in a climate of (IMO, often reactionary) interest in tradition. The OSR movement and Pathfinder both picked up steam in this period, and WotC got burned BAD for their commitment to the OGL (which I think did good things for gaming as a whole, but bad things to WotC specifically). Further, there's been an explosion of new development--13th Age, Numenera, Dungeon World, and more than a few video games or book series adapted into RPG format. The playtest period was preoccupied, almost humorously so, with getting the "feel" right and often deprecated (intentionally or not) the mathematical design.

Both games were reactions to the climate that their design began in. I just think it's unfortunate that 4e addressed the problems most people recognize apply to 3e (and, to a slightly lesser extent, PF), while 5e "addresses" the problems of 4e by simply abandoning (almost) everything 4e achieved, with token or hollow references remaining (e.g. Hit Dice are NOT Healing Surges, at-will cantrips are NOT at-will powers, etc.)
 
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Why would one need encounters and dailies in previous editions when one could declare any action they needed in earlier editions. There was no card system, there was an auto-attack and ANYTHING you want.
If you have a card, then the DM is inclined to let that card work exactly as it's written. If you don't have a card, then the DM needs to figure out how to resolve your action using other system mechanics. As often as not, the DM may be inclined toward erring on the side of caution, to the point where your action is likely to fail outright (or otherwise be less effective than you were hoping).

You could theoretically do anything, but in practice, you could do whatever the DM would let you get away with. Generalizing that further, it gets to the point where improvised actions are rarely worthwhile, since effective improvised actions would mean nobody ever actually attacked each other.
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
It isn't if I'm actually sitting with power cards.
No, if you were actually sitting there with power cards printed out from the CB, calling 6 to 9 cards (at wills, second wind, basic attacks, class-feature powers, encounter & daily) '1 card' would not be a bad analogy.
It would simply be false.

Encounters were more of the same 'one-tricks' that could be pulled off in any and every encounter. Why would one need encounters and dailies in previous editions when one could declare any action they needed in earlier editions.
Because you could 'declare actions' all you wanted, it didn't mean they'd actually work - and because anyone could declare the same action, if it seemed to work decidedly well.

If I'm sitting with cards, I'm more inclined to use those cards.
Why, if you hate being 'limited' by them so much?
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
It isn't if I'm actually sitting with power cards.

What character did you play, such that you literally had exactly one card, never more? Because even the intentionally-simplified Slayer doesn't have that few, AFAIK. As noted above, the typical character starts with four (two at-will, one encounter, one daily), and steadily gains more, to a total of 8-9 by Paragon tier; even Paragon and Epic tier continue to expand the repertoire, just at a (much) slower rate (mainly through PP/ED features and utility powers).

Encounters were more of the same 'one-tricks' that could be pulled off in any and every encounter. Why would one need encounters and dailies in previous editions when one could declare any action they needed in earlier editions. There was no card system, there was an auto-attack and ANYTHING you want.
If I'm sitting with cards, I'm more inclined to use those cards.

Can you point me in the direction of these mythical older-style edition DMs who actually allow "anything you want"? Because I've played several sessions of B/X. They were enjoyable sessions! But "ANYTHING you want" does not characterize the experience I had. It was, "Anything you think you can persuade your DM to buy," which hinges far more on knowing your DM's thought patterns, being a charismatic person, and exploiting RL resources or logical arguments.

Which, unless I'm very much mistaken...all of these things still apply just as well to 4e as they do to any game. Particularly with stuff like pg. 42, which gives guidelines for adjudicating those "ANYTHING you want" actions. You just have, as you have noted, effective tools that mean you do not need to exercise charisma, knowing-your-DM-well/reading your DM's mind, or RL resources/logic, if you do not WISH to do so.

Perhaps the problem is that people you have gamed with simply do not wish to exercise creativity unless they are forced to? That's somewhat harsh, so I apologize for that, but it may be true. If someone need their game to FORCE them to be creative in order for them to be creative at all...well, I'm sorry that that is the case, because there are doors closed to them that are open to me. :(
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
"Evolution," despite the common perception, has no favored direction. Evolution is adaptation. Adaptation only considers the situation of the moment; it has no moral center, no higher calling, no contextual significance beyond (in a biological sense) "this contributed to not-death, or avoided death." Atavism and loss of previously-acquired adaptation is perfectly in keeping with the meaning of "evolution."
I know, but it certainly wasn't being used that way, but in the 'common perception' sense. In any case 'evolved' fits 4e, and 'atavistic' fits 5e /better/ than 'evolved' does, being more specific, and quite accurate.
 

Dungeon Master's Guide 2 and Monster Manual 3...etc
Seem mostly to me to be attempts to perfect their default approach. MM3 monsters are more likely to be entertaining, but the adventure designs they are employed in are still fundamentally static. They obviously DID begin to get a clue towards the very end, as Guardmore Abby and to a more limited extent the last couple modules (the ones that were included in Essentials) are a BIT less lugubrious. There are bits and pieces of other modules, as well as some not-strictly-WotC material (Some RPGA and Dungeon material) that comes across fairly well.

But no, in general WotC seems to have been geared towards basically 2e-esque sorts of adventures with some plotline, but lots of very 2-dimensional encounters and weak motivations, or really just leaving that part of things to the DM.

What works well in 4e are Indiana Jones-like action scenes. I had one where the PCs shoot down a log flume riding on logs, crash into the sawmill and pile onto the big bad, just as he's about to chop the helpless girl in half with the giant saw blade! That's what works, crazy stuff. Trudging down another corridor and opening a door and finding 6 orcs in a 30x30 room is suck. Modules are FILLED with that crap.

From what you added here, nothing seems to contradict what I wrote so I guess I didn't miss anything. You think you knew 4e strengths better than the designers, period, and it is ok I guess. I'm just pointing out that many people feel that way when their game evolves/changes (substitute any word that you feel comfortable with) and that is natural. There is nothing unique about it. I felt the same about 2e and 3e.
Again, you just construct 2 extremes and no middle and then argue it can't be either extreme so its nothing at all. I think there were designers that 'got it' to varying extents, and in different ways, and there were parts of WotC that didn't seem to get it at all. Maybe a lot of it was simply an inability to alter the process of content development sufficiently to produce stuff that worked, I don't know.

Overall the content that WotC produced for 4e failed to coincide with the strong points of the that that I know of, which I identified by experimentation with playing style over 5 campaigns or so. Maybe there are other ways to play it as well, but all the people I saw out there being really successful with the game were doing at least a number of things similar to what I was doing.
 

It isn't if I'm actually sitting with power cards.
But, as was explained, NO 4e character has less than about 4 power cards, even at level 1, and the number quickly rises to around 7, and can quite easily be substantially higher depending on feats, items, and class features that provide powers, race, etc. By their very nature most of these will be potentially applicable in any given turn of a fight.

Encounters were more of the same 'one-tricks' that could be pulled off in any and every encounter. Why would one need encounters and dailies in previous editions when one could declare any action they needed in earlier editions. There was no card system, there was an auto-attack and ANYTHING you want.
If I'm sitting with cards, I'm more inclined to use those cards.

But its very hard to find a character build, unless you deliberately create a one-trick-pony that has one trick and nothing else. Even in the later case its more like they have one really overly potent trick and several other useful but relatively less enticing options.

And you simply cannot discount page 42 in 4e while lauding AD&D characters as being 'able to do anything' when there were NO RULES AT ALL for doing anything except whatever few things were part of your class. For a fighter that meant pretty close to nothing but swing away. Sure, you could chuck oil, but you can do that in 4e too, you could do many things like that in either edition. If you've used your 'one trick' and you simply don't bother to do anything else how is that the game being a bad game? I don't get how people can have the means at hand to play in a fun way and claim that because they didn't bother that it was the game that was unsuitable. I have to think they didn't want to try.
 

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