D&D 5E Any reason not to let PCs add Proficiency to all Saves?

[S'mon]

Solo play is viable. And I'm not saying it's kinda viable or it's sorta viable, or it's only viable if you're a very delicate DM, I'm saying it's viable, right now, using the existing CR math.

OK, I just want it *more* viable when spellcasters & ghouls appear.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I like it that 5e seems robust enough to allow for a much more Status Quo/Environment based campaign design (also the 5e encounter-building and monster-building rules seem rather weak & messy to me

That's two sides of the Bounded-Accuracy coin. On the one side, you can use almost any monster against almost any PC, and relative checks will only deviate by +/- 5 or so (occasionally 11, and all-good-saves makes it less common), the much higher level monster will still erase the PCs due to difference in hps/damage/etc, but the basics of can you hit it, can it hit you aren't going to be only on 20s or 1s. On the other side of the coin, in return for that narrower spectrum of competence, you also get numbers (ie: being outnumbered) telling very heavily, and a more complicated, less dependable set of encounter guidelines.

I see now one thing to bear in mind if I run 5e at the Meetup rather than via Dragonsfoot is that players coming from 3e/PF are going to be looking for more of a 3e approach to rules, and some degree of continuing caster supremacy, and may be disgruntled if they don't get it.

Shouldn't be an issue if you start them at 1st level - there's not much expectation of supremacy at low level, even in 3e. And it's not like traditional standbys like Sleep disappoint.

 

[S'mon]

OK, I just want it *more* viable when spellcasters & ghouls appear.

Update - even with all-good-saves I nearly TPK'd the group with a 'sleep gas plus wight' trap in Caverns of Thracia. All but 2 of the 8 characters (PC & NPC) failed the DC 15 CON save on the first round, another on the 2nd; only the dwarf (who had Advantage vs the poison gas) stayed up long enough to deal with the trap, only to be killed by the wight.
My mistake was not lowering the 3e-listed DC 15 to a 12 or 13.

 

[Zak S]

I've always seen "Near TPK" is the best possible result in a game.

The players get all of the the exhilaration of a life or death struggle but then….they do indeed make it.

As for the original OP--

I like the idea that a player can be clever and target the ogre's dex or the wizard's strength, so I see the idea that they party's wizard needs to be clever enough to play around his or her own crappy str save as simply the flip side of that.

Tho if you have players who aren't thinking that way about the game and never will and never want to, that's not a mechanic that'll appeal to you.

 

[Celtavian]

I think they installed enough road blocks for casters to not need proficiency in all saves. Save every round, concentration mechanic, spells breaking on the slightest damage, no high damage crits, no save for die spells. I don't see the need to provide further defense against magic. Maybe you should play it as is first and adjust if you start to see something you don't like.

Spells don't do a lot of damage any longer. Their effects are generally not permanent. Most durations have been substantially lowered as well.

Back in the 1E days, missing a save meant you died or were turned to stone. I can see why saves were so low. In 5E you often get multiple saves, the counters to spells are generally lower level than the spell they are countering. It's a very different game. Proficiency with all saves for every class is going to make monster special abilities and enemy spells nearly useless. Not to mention hamstring your caster players more than they are with the current limitations.

Seems like a bad idea unless your intention is to turn casters into the equivalent of irritating fleas.

 

[Celtavian]

Update - even with all-good-saves I nearly TPK'd the group with a 'sleep gas plus wight' trap in Caverns of Thracia. All but 2 of the 8 characters (PC & NPC) failed the DC 15 CON save on the first round, another on the 2nd; only the dwarf (who had Advantage vs the poison gas) stayed up long enough to deal with the trap, only to be killed by the wight.
My mistake was not lowering the 3e-listed DC 15 to a 12 or 13.

DC 15 is a high save in this game.

 

[S'mon]

I've always seen "Near TPK" is the best possible result in a game.

The players get all of the the exhilaration of a life or death struggle but then….they do indeed make it.

As for the original OP--

I like the idea that a player can be clever and target the ogre's dex or the wizard's strength, so I see the idea that they party's wizard needs to be clever enough to play around his or her own crappy str save as simply the flip side of that.

Tho if you have players who aren't thinking that way about the game and never will and never want to, that's not a mechanic that'll appeal to you.

I think the latter point depends a bit on genre - Gygaxian D&D would suit crappy saves, though maybe not the way 5e saves stay crap (actually get worse relative to threat) at high levels. This campaign is more Conanesque sword & sorcery though so I think the PCs should be robust.
Near TPK - again I sort of agree, but the way the sleeping gas trap sprung I don't think the players appreciated how close they were to TPK. It was "you go in room - you're asleep - wight is energy draining you". I think the PC who (incredibly) survived* 3 rounds unconscious & being energy-drained before the others woke up had some appreciation of it though.

*I'm using negative hit points and death when your negative tally equals your positive tally, rather than the official death saves system, which would have killed several PCs & allies in that encounter. No Raise Dead is available so I was happy with how it worked out. The sleeping Barbarian PC being drained was taking full
critical hit damage from the wight every round as his Rage of course had ended, but he had high CON, made most of the saves vs draining (which in 5e lowers your max hp tally and thus IMC max neg tally), and he still had a few negative hp left when the others awoke & came to his aid.

 

[S'mon]

DC 15 is a high save in this game.

Yup, I should have followed the standard conversion rule to halve 3e/PF saves above 10, so a 15 becomes a 12 or 13.

 

[Zak S]

When they almost die and don't realize it I tell them.

 

[S'mon]

Proficiency with all saves for every class is going to make monster special abilities and enemy spells nearly useless. Not to mention hamstring your caster players more than they are with the current limitations.

Most monsters & NPCs use the listed saves in the MM. I do give a few special NPCs all good saves. For a Conanesque sword & sorcery game like this one I'm ok with martial characters being stronger in
direct combat, I'm giving the lone caster (Warlock) the ability to use scrolls from any caster class and I would
let him do rituals - although I didn't let him summon his Archfey patron at 3rd level the way he wanted.


I agree the low-level game is balanced as-is, long as the GM keeps DCs low and doesn't run Caverns off Thracia ; I'm unconvinced high level 5e is balanced when PCs always fail most saves, but maybe I'm wrong. Would be good to see some accounts.