D&D 5E 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

[KarinsDad]

I'm not sure who you play with the majority of the time. I play with real life friends. It's extremely unfair due to the way 5E is designed (concentration, limited magic items, limited feats) to not buff your friend with fly if his primary means of attacking is melee.

This is invalid logic. Just because a player does not want to be buffing his fellow PC with a Fly spell does not mean that they are not friends. It means that the DM is putting the PCs in situations where there is a decision to be made.

There is nothing unfair about it at all. The player of the fighter can become an Eldtritch Knight if he wants mobility or multiclass into another class.

This has nothing to do with friendship or fairness. It's a game style preference for individual players.

 

[Celtavian]

Include more monsters that don't fly?

Either in separate encounters, or have multiple types in same encounter. You fighter can go toe to toe with the minotaur while the ranged guys are shooting down the harpies before they get too close.

I have read many of your comments, so I know you are experienced and already know this. So if you have varying type of encounters, that obviates the need for always casting fly on the GWM.

IME, if the party has the same spell combo and attack plan every time, I need to change things up. NOT stealing their glory or taking away from their ingenuity, but maybe their favorite tactics only work 1/3 of the time, based on them driving the story and what they encounter of course.

We do change it up. Fly is needed against dragons and flying outsiders (some with reach). We fought a lot of dragons in the Tyranny of Dragons modules in hard circumstances like difficult terrain. That definitely made the melee martial mobility problem standout. It wasn't much a problem in 3E/Pathfinder due to magic items. It's a real problem in 5E if you play with limited magic items. Even fly potions aren't real good against dragons because they only provide movement speed fly speed.

We'll get the kinks worked out in due time.

We're having a much easier time in a group with a bunch of ranged power. Warlock/Fighter is a beast. Eldritch Knight archer is extremely strong. Trickery Cleric is strong. Diviner Mage has some nifty tricks. Open Hand monk can do decent damage, but buy he sure does get torn up at the moment. The overall group can deliver damage without having to worry much about mobility. The Open Hand monk is the only one that will need fly in the group. He does have a bow and a high dex. So won't be as bad as a str-based melee martial.

 

[Celtavian]

Sounds like your player doesn't just want to be the GWF concept, but wants "GWF who can fly", and I'd tell that player that sorry, that concept doesn't really exist in the game unless he wants to multi-class to a caster and get that spell himself. I.e., building a character concept that is dependent on your other players doing exactly what you want is pretty poor form. And a bit selfish.

It's not you being selfish for feeling bad because you have to cast fly on him every combat and not using any of your other spells. It's the other player being selfish. D&D, since day 1, has been a team sport by default. Sometimes your PC will be in a situation where they aren't all that useful and another player gets to shine. Demanding to be the #1 guy all the time is childish and selfish.

I play with friends, not people I treat like I don't care if they have any fun.

This wasn't a problem with easy access to disposable magic items and no concentration mechanic.

It isn't the player being selfish. You seem to think it is ok that a game create a situation where a melee martial can't enter combat due to something like the concentration mechanic, lack of easily available disposable magic items that provide an actual fly spell, and high mobility creatures that can full attack and move their full flight speed thus avoiding the melee martial complete. It creates a situation where the melee martial has no chance of living or attacking effectively. He becomes a fifth wheel because he chose a fairly common fictional fighting archetype and another person chose an archetype that can attack at range.

What you want me to say to my friend is the following, "Never choose to play a melee str-based martial ever again that can't cast fly on himself (Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster). You know dragons and demons get to move their full speed and attack evading your melee attacks. I don't want to have to cast fly on you. I know str-based thrown ranged weapons only have about a 30 foot effective range and it's hard to come by magic weapons that will make you do half of the already lower damage you're doing with throwing weapon, but them's the breaks. Don't ever choose like classic archetypes like Battlemaster fighters with greatswords or barbarians. You're going to make things hard for us at high level against powerful high mobility creatures like dragons and demons."

If you feel like saying that to your friends, have at it. I like to work as a group and have fun as a group. At the moment casting fly on my buddy's greatsword wielding battlemaster not only allows him to get into combat against dragons and demons, it's also a smart move. It would not only be selfish of me not to cast it on him, but poor tactics considering he can do good damage with his blade.

 

[Celtavian]

Yeah, this was my thought as well. If the party thought having the Fighter fly was that important, what was the reason for not trying to find or acquire a magic item to let him fly on his own so the wizard wasn't expected to always cast the spell?

Obviously, the DM doesn't have to make an item like that available to the party... but if the DM knows the spellcaster is unhappy with the game because this is an expected part of his job, then you'd hope he/she would acquiesce a little.

Are you talking about winged boots that give a flight speed equal to walking speed? They would help. But dragons move 80 feet per move and have reach. Even a fly at walking speed can often be avoided by a dragon. That was the main instance we cast fly in. We fought a lot of them.

Other combats were extremely easy compared to the dragon fights. Even fighting some big, powerful outsiders was much easier.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Yes, it is in fact being selfish if you expect all the other players to cater to what you want, regardless if they want the same thing. That's a no brainer. I'm not telling you to tell your friend to never choose a str based martial ever again; drop the hyperbole please. What I am saying, is that if a player wanted to play a STR based marital and wanted to fly whenever he or she wanted, I would tell them that it's their responsibility to make that happen. In this case, multi-class would be an option to achieve that.

And I certainly do play with friends. Because I don't cater to their every whim doesn't mean that "I don't care if they have any fun." Come on now. Stop that sort of fallacy right now please. Thank you.

 

[Psikerlord#]

While what you say might be true in some cases, I do think that there is "group expectations" or "peer pressure" for casters to take certain spells and cast them in situations at many or most tables. For example, some classes take heal spells, arcane casters take Fly spells so that melee types can get into combat, etc.

I was discussing this with my friend who plays the Cleric and I said to her, you have so few spells (Wis 14), if you don't want to take Aid, don't. Let the Paladin do any Aiding. But even with that in mind, she is the only PC that can cast Revival (although it has never been needed except the one time the Cleric almost died, go figure), so there might be some expectation that she have it ready. The player is a people pleaser, so ... she always takes Revival, just in case. It's sometimes hard for some people to not be in this type of expectation mindset.



I originally had a penalty to it in my house rules (or alternatively, an increase to the save DC), but I didn't want a single hard hit to nearly always take out multiple (or all) spells and it was a bit more bookkeeping.

Very true on the player expectation thing... esp for healing and revival (we don't use revival, raise dead or resurrection - but when we used to, the cleric "had" to have slots free for those). In the groups I've played each player has been fairly "self sufficient" and I've never found an expectation to prepare fly, but I can certainly understand that some players might. It's up to the caster player to "train" his fellow players out of such expectations, I suppose - assuming they don't wish to play buffers (which some love to do).

 

[Celtavian]

At what level? Damage resistance is kind of rare at lower levels. An occasional Ghost or Banshee or something. By the time the PCs get to the second tier, they are a bit screwed if they do not have magic weapons for things like Golems.

Outsiders, even lower CR outsiders rely on damage resistance to last. Lycanthropes are way too easy without damage resistance. Golems. As you stated a few undead like wights and banshees. If a player doesn't pick up silver weapons, they can be tough fights. Once the players bypass DR, they're not much different from everything else.

 

[Psikerlord#]

I'm not sure who you play with the majority of the time. I play with real life friends. It's extremely unfair due to the way 5E is designed (concentration, limited magic items, limited feats) to not buff your friend with fly if his primary means of attacking is melee. He had a bow and some ranged attacks. Dragons move fast enough to get outside range of most thrown weapons giving disadvantage on attacks and he only had a 14 Dex and 20 str. That don't work real good using the bow compared to his magic sword.

In 3E you had no concentration and easy access to disposable magic items (not to mention a Christmas tree of magic items), so a melee martial usually found a means to fly on his own. A caster didn't have to worry about it. That isn't the case in 5E. It would be a real jerk move to discourage anyone from playing a melee martial concept because the casters weren't willing to cast fly to help them get into combat. I like to see my buddies have fun with their characters. So I buff them and use other means to attack, since I have other effective means and his other means aren't nearly as effective (disadvantage outside of 30 feet, no magic ranged weapon, lower dex stat).

That's why I've said in 5E dex-based martial classes like the rogue or an archer fighter are better than Str-based martials like a barbarian or heavy weapon melee guy. It's why I don't mind GWM save how it overshadows two-weapon fighting style. Melee martials have problems at high level the way 5E mobility and attacking works in this game.

I play with a mix of real life friends and also separate roll20 guys. Opposite to you, I find it extremely unfair to expect the caster to have any buffing spells at all. The caster decides his spells, that's all there is to it. He might be able to give a melee guy a fly at the right time, but he might not. Melee guy should definintely not depend on it (dispel magic and breaking concentration come to mind for starters). The best solution is for the melee guy to have a bow etc - and use that. Yeah, against flying enemies, the melee guy is going to shine less.... which sounds about right to me.

How often do you meet flying guys anyway? At low to mid levels, not much. At high levels.... well who plays those levels, anyway? (and I guess at high levels, the caster has more slots, so more chance there will be a spare slot for fly... or a magic carpet or other fly item).

 

[Celtavian]

This is invalid logic. Just because a player does not want to be buffing his fellow PC with a Fly spell does not mean that they are not friends. It means that the DM is putting the PCs in situations where there is a decision to be made.

There is nothing unfair about it at all. The player of the fighter can become an Eldtritch Knight if he wants mobility or multiclass into another class.

This has nothing to do with friendship or fairness. It's a game style preference for individual players.

I'll cover this first. This was the first time we played 5E. He did not know when he made his character that this would become an issue at higher level. He was making a character concept he enjoyed in every other edition of D&D. It had never been this much of a problem until 5E introduced the concentration mechanic.

Invalid logic to you? I think if you're friends with someone, you will help them have fun in a game you're playing primarily for fun. I think if you do look across at your buddy and tell him you won't buff him with a fly spell when you know he can't get into battle any other way, you and he aren't very good friends.

I'll just halt this discussion right now. We're never, ever going to agree as to what a friend does for another friend. I consider it extremely important for a friend to play a group game in a manner that helps the overall party. If he is playing selfishly such as playing a healer that won't heal or the arcane caster that won't buff, that isn't enjoyable for most of the group. It creates a very bad precedent at the table in my experience. We all have different ideas of what constitutes friendship. I've always been of the mind that you help your buddies have fun or succeed, that includes games.

 

[Celtavian]

Yes, it is in fact being selfish if you expect all the other players to cater to what you want, regardless if they want the same thing. That's a no brainer. I'm not telling you to tell your friend to never choose a str based martial ever again; drop the hyperbole please. What I am saying, is that if a player wanted to play a STR based marital and wanted to fly whenever he or she wanted, I would tell them that it's their responsibility to make that happen. In this case, multi-class would be an option to achieve that.

And I certainly do play with friends. Because I don't cater to their every whim doesn't mean that "I don't care if they have any fun." Come on now. Stop that sort of fallacy right now please. Thank you.

Why don't you drop the assumptions? It wasn't every fight we're casting fly. Just dragon fights and against powerful flying outsiders. Once you cast that concentration spell, you're locked in. When you're a level 16 mage, you don't like your best option to always be cast fly on paladin or fighter so they can do damage. There were other factors that made this my best option like Legendary Resistance. All the factors added up to a very repetitive experience that would have been somewhat lessened if every martial from here on out plays a ranged striker, so I never have to worry about casting fly to get them into battle, including the paladin.

I like some of the classic archetypes that like raging barbarian or pure martial fighters like Launcelot. It's a bit disappointing that they are such a liability in 5E due to a variety of factors inherent in the game.