The Confederate Flag

[Enkhidu]

On the contrary, I said that extremely specifically.

And yet I still have an emotional reaction to the term.

In any event, I can accept that I'm the minority opinion here. Ignore my complaints with the language, etc.

 

[Umbran]

I object to the notion that I am personally responsible for things that happened hundreds of years ago...

Ah, and here we find a time where some specificity in language might be useful - there is actually a difference between responsibility and accountability.

In ethics and governance, accountability is answerability, blameworthiness, liability. When it comes to apportioning guilt or fault, it falls to the accountable person.

Responsibility is being in charge of implementation, of getting something done. This can be seen in the phrasing we often use, of someone being a "responsible adult", meaning that they make sure everything gets done, whatever the source of the work might have been.

So, for reparations - those who actually made the choices that did harm are accountable. For us, the point is that the moral and ethical flaw was in someone now long dead. But that does not mean we today should take no action - we may still be responsible for the actions that make some correction for that harm.

The young German who finds stolen artwork in his or her attic is by no means accountable for the theft, but they're responsible for returning the goods.

 

[Alzrius]

So we go with reparations as a reasonable mechanism.

Leaving aside any moral or ethical concerns with regard to reparations, there's an issue with how "reasonable" the mechanism is purely in practical terms. The first one being that most estimates for how much money is due to the African-American community tend to be too large to actually be paid.

The Wikipedia page on this topic cites a source (from what looks like a somewhat right-of-center publication) that calculates that the U.S. government should pay out $40 trillion dollars to the African-American community in reparations, which is currently more than twice the federal government's annual GDP.

Moreover, this is less than half of the 100 trillion dollars that article concludes are due reparations (since slavery existed in America before the U.S. government was founded), with the remaining amount coming from governments of colonial powers (e.g. Britain, Spain, and France) and private institutions (e.g. JP Morgan Chase) that also benefited from slavery. That would be a payout of $2.5 million to each of the roughly 40 million African-Americans currently living in the United States.

Now, huge monetary transfers made from one government to another - or even between a large private enterprise and a government - are entirely feasible, and happen all the time. But those don't pose the same logistical challenges as suddenly giving so many private citizens so much money.

 

[Morrus]

Leaving aside any moral or ethical concerns with regard to reparations, there's an issue with how "reasonable" the mechanism is purely in practical terms. The first one being that most estimates for how much money is due to the African-American community tend to be too large to actually be paid.

Yup. It's a clumsy mechanism; it's the only one we currently have though.

 

[Morrus]

The young German who finds stolen artwork in his or her attic is by no means accountable for the theft, but they're responsible for returning the goods.

More succinct than my post, but that explains it perfectly.

 

[tomBitonti]

Ah; reparations.

A problem here is that much of the harm is irreversible. I find Native Americans to be a much more cogent example. Most of a continent was taken. A population was reduced to a fraction (5%? 1%? 0.1%?) of its previous size.

The only meaningful reparation would be to remove the current federal and state governments and replace them with councils of Native Americans. Or, more drastic changes, since I can imagine some Native Americans wanting to more dismantle things than take just them over.

Or, perhaps, uprooting Americans by the millions and having them walk their own Trail of Tears.

I'm speaking hypothetically, but I want to resettle the discussion to more real points. I think South Africa and Bosnia-Hertzogovina are salient examples for beginning to understand what there is to repair.

Thx!

TomB

 

[gamerprinter]

My problem with reparations is it would be paid by tax payers, and many Americans, like myself, have ancestors that didn't arrive in the US until after the start of the Civil War, meaning, none of my ancestors owned nor facilitated the institution of slavery in any way - why should I be held responsible to help pay for that? Add to that my ancestors who arrived here after the start of the Civil War, fought for the north, so helped end slavery.

To extend this train of thought, since I live in Illinois, all the native Americans that have been displaced from Illinois, occurred while the French owned this land, by the time my ancestors arrived in Illinois, no natives were living here, so my ancestors did not help displace the natives from their land, and since my ancestors settled in Illinois, none went west to help displace those natives either. Historically, my family was never part of the problem, yet as a descendant American, I am expected to help share the burden of cost in reparations, if such should occur. I don't agree with that.

 

[Raunalyn]

Where do we draw the line for reparations? My ancestors were enslaved by the Romans...should I demand reparations from them?

I'll also echo gamerprinter...my family did not arrive in the US until after the Civil War (my paternal grandfather is British, and my maternal ancestors are French Canadian/Irish). Reparations would inevitably require taxpayer dollars to finance...

 

[billd91]

My problem with reparations is it would be paid by tax payers, and many Americans, like myself, have ancestors that didn't arrive in the US until after the start of the Civil War, meaning, none of my ancestors owned nor facilitated the institution of slavery in any way - why should I be held responsible to help pay for that? Add to that my ancestors who arrived here after the start of the Civil War, fought for the north, so helped end slavery.

To extend this train of thought, since I live in Illinois, all the native Americans that have been displaced from Illinois, occurred while the French owned this land, by the time my ancestors arrived in Illinois, no natives were living here, so my ancestors did not help displace the natives from their land, and since my ancestors settled in Illinois, none went west to help displace those natives either. Historically, my family was never part of the problem, yet as a descendant American, I am expected to help share the burden of cost in reparations, if such should occur. I don't agree with that.

Do you benefit from the institutions that profited from displacing Native Americans or from holding Africans as slaves? Chances are you do since a lot of northern firms, particularly banks, benefited a great deal from slavery and others, like farming, from clearing the land of Native American rivals. And, whether you do or don't, by being an American, you shoulder America's burdens as well as its benefits. You're responsible for America's outstanding debts and ongoing obligations as much as any of the rest of us are.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Where do we draw the line for reparations? My ancestors were enslaved by the Romans...should I demand reparations from them?

There is no Roman Empire from whom to seek reparations.

My problem with reparations is it would be paid by tax payers, and many Americans, like myself, have ancestors that didn't arrive in the US until after the start of the Civil War, meaning, none of my ancestors owned nor facilitated the institution of slavery in any way - why should I be held responsible to help pay for that? Add to that my ancestors who arrived here after the start of the Civil War, fought for the north, so helped end slavery.

And

I'll also echo gamerprinter...my family did not arrive in the US until after the Civil War (my paternal grandfather is British, and my maternal ancestors are French Canadian/Irish). Reparations would inevitably require taxpayer dollars to finance...

Yes it would...including from those who would be receiving the benefit of the reparations. So, whatever amount of reparations is given is thus discounted by the fact of the victims being partially paying for their own reparations.

All of which goes to:

1) reparations is a clumsy mechanism, but the only one we have beyond words, and

2) why I don't advocate reparations.