The Assassin is suboptimal compared to the Arcane Trickster. You outlined a scenario showing why. An arcane trickster could cast a hold person from a hidden position giving Disadvantage on the saving throw allowing him to get the same advantage as the Assassin for a possibly longer period as well as preventing the target from acting. I tried the Assassin with my first rogue thinking, "Cool. Assassinate is awesome." Once I had analyzed capabilities, my second rogue was an arcane trickster because of the limited use of Assassinate. You're a one trick pony as an Assassin. Even when I was running the liberal interpretation of this rule, it was a moderately interesting trick. Now with the Mearls ruling, it's not even a moderately interesting trick. It's a trap option that you shouldn't waste your time on if you want to maximize your capabilities.
-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
D&D 5E Assassinate
- Thread starter Jaracove
- Start date
redrick
First Post
Actually curious, as I don't have my PHB with me. Is the Disadvantage on the save for Hold Person something particular to the Arcane Trickster? As I understand the rules, a situation that would yield Advantage on an attack roll does not necessarily yield Disadvantage on a saving throw. From my understanding, there's no benefit to casting a Save spell from hiding other than, as long as you stay hidden, enemies will have a harder time attacking you.
If the target isn't saving at Disadvantage, chances of success on that Hold Person are not quite as good as your attack with Advantage. (Especially if your Assassin is dual wielding thrown weapons or melee weapons, giving two chances at a hit, both with Advantage, one of which could yield full critical sneak attack.) Also remember that your target gets two chances to save before the Trickster's next turn. One when the spell is cast, and another at the end of its turn. Still a useful opening move! Even taking one turn away from an opponent is a useful thing in a 3-round combat, and anybody who attacks said target before its turn will get Advantage.
On the other hand, casting Hold Person against a target that is already surprised might be a bit of a waste. The target wasn't going to act that round anyway, and if it saves at the end of its turn, you've got nothing to show for your spell slot. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
On a side tangent, with the Assassinate feature and a dual wielding rogue, you would get automatic criticals both attacks if successful, correct? Not that the critical on the non-sneak-attack is worth much compared to the 6d6 or more from the first attack, so probably better off using that bonus action to do something Cunning.
--EDITED TO ADD--
Obviously, if you're liking the Arcane Trickster, it's a great subclass, and opens up all sorts of creative options. We have an Arcane Trickster in our group now and he's having a great time. Just not sure that the Assassin is as useless as you're making it out to be. Assassinate comes up a lot, and when it does, it's always useful.
It seems all about what you like to do. If your thing is about sneaking around and getting the drop on people, Assassinate is great. And the Advantage from acting first in combat will often come up even when you're not surprising your enemies. That's a good chance at a free sneak attack just for having a high initiative bonus. (There's usually somebody who rolls lower initiative than the guy with +4 or +5 dex. Even if you don't pick up the Alert feat.) Not to mention that, as an Assassin, you don't have to worry about your Intelligence so much, so you can focus on stats like Wisdom and Strength, which make you better at getting climbing into useful places or spotting your enemies before they spot you. Not every Rogue wants to focus resources on Intelligence in order to have a high save DC.
Last edited:
Hriston
Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
Ok, let's assume the invisible Bard/Assassin is hidden from the Drow, and the Drow is hidden from both the Bard/Assassin and the Wizard. Combat is triggered because the Drow is aware of the Wizard. So the Bard/Assassin and the Wizard are surprised, but the Drow is not because he is aware of the Wizard standing out in the open. Roll initiative.
Round 1: The Drow comes out of hiding and attacks the surprised Wizard with advantage and auto-crit from Assassinate and dealing extra damage from Sneak Attack. Meanwhile the Bard/Assassin and Wizard are surprised and can't move or act.
Round 2: The Drow attacks the Wizard again, but without advantage this time, trying to finish the Wizard off by continuing in melee with him. Then the Bard/Assassin attacks the Drow with advantage due to being unseen and gains Sneak Attack dice. He then uses Cunning Action to Hide. The Wizard then attacks the Drow however he can.
Round 3: The Drow must now decide whether to continue attacking the Wizard or to attack the invisible Bard/Assassin at disadvantage, in which case he would need to guess his location. He could also ready an action to attack the Bard/Assassin as soon as he revealed his position by attacking again, but the attack would still be at disadvantage. The Bard/Assassin and Wizard simply continue attacking, giving chase if the Drow decides to flee.
redrick
First Post
Hmm, wait so you are ruling that the Drow is surprised — by the Bard — but not by the Wizard?
This issue came up in conversation, though never in practice, at my table when a player rolled up an Assassin. Can an Assassin "surprise" the target, even if other players have already entered combat? And, the short answer, by the rules and by my ruling is, absolutely not. A character is either surprised or not surprised. There's no "surprised by..." Otherwise, the assassin can sneak alongside a group of adventurers clomping along in heavy armor, obviously alerting their prey, but jump out and say, "But I surprise!" That's not how the rules work. Otherwise, how do you handle taking or not taking actions on your turn? When the target is alerted, they don't have to know the exact makeup and position of the attacking force, just that somebody is coming and they should prepare for combat. The hidden attacker would still get Advantage for attacking from hiding, and sneak attack if a rogue, but no benefits from being surprised. This forces a party to make a choice — send the Assassin up ahead to take advantage of a sneak attack, but risk leaving that Assassin exposed without heavily armored backup, or send the whole party forward in a full frontral assault.
However, I did house-rule the following exception. If two parties are engaged in combat, and a third enters combat, from hiding, and from an entirely different direction, where the target would not be paying any attention, the target can be considered surprised with regards to that third party. This would bring Assassinate into play, and also mean that the target can take no actions against said third party for that round, nor reactions until the end of their turn. I also made it very clear that this would be awarded entirely at my discretion. It never actually happened in play. The one time the Assassin tried to pull it off, the Ranger swept around so that she was line of sight with the target and where the Assassin was hiding, and then fired, drawing the target's attention in that direction. (I think she had a good reason to do this, but it did cause some heated conversation between the two of them.) In retrospect, I probably wouldn't use this house rule again, as I don't know that there's any need to encourage even more Lone Wolf behavior from Assassins.
Off topic, but what are the mechanics granting disadvantage here? I understand disadvantage against an unseen opponent, but wouldn't holding an attack against an unseen opponent until after they give away their location mean the attacker is no longer unseen, negating the disadvantage?
redrick
First Post
I believe we're assuming that the Bard/Assassin is invisible due to Improved Invisibility, so even though the Drow would know his position (since he has attacked and revealed it), he still wouldn't actually be able to see him.
(Since it's a readied action, the Drow can attack after the trigger — Bard/Assassin reveals his location — but before the Bard/Assassin is able to use his cunning action to "hide", thereby slipping into a new, unknown location, without giving that away to observers.)
Ok, that makes sense. I was trying to puzzle out how the disadvantage carried over after the Bard became visible and thinking I had missed some subtle point in the rules.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
yes...
If you don't know someone is there, and the first time you realize someone is when the knife goes in... it is surprise
with a bard/assassin who LOVES to do tricks it comes upto 2-3 times a week at our current campaign...
that would totally ruin half the tactics our group uses... heck the 'start a fight among the party then surprise hit the enemy' tackit from movies sometimes works...
up... I allow that.
I allow any rp surprise for the assassinate...
we discussed 'assassin creed' style hidden blades as well...
BUt you need to realize that is not how the rules describe combat.
The rules do not allow for those 'not quite in combat yet' attacks.
redrick
First Post
Obviously, your game, your rules. If you and your players are fine, all's well.
That being said, what you are describing seems like, well, Sneak Attack. The Surprise mechanic is all about whether or not you can act in the first round of combat, which doesn't really work if you are evaluating Surprise with regards to every combination of combatants. The Assassinate ability is just a unique special ability that keys off of the general ability of Surprise.
It seems to be that you are basically ruling, "In the first round of combat, if you Sneak Attack an enemy, the attack is automatically a critical hit." Which, again, if it doesn't bother you or your players, is an all-well-and-good way to buff the Assassin a little bit.
For myself, I am not interested in an interpretation of surprise that is that liberal and that open to interpretation.
