D&D 5E breaking the healing rules with goodberries

[Coredump]

[MENTION=67338]GMforPowergamers[/MENTION]: goodberry doesn't scale, so it'll always be considered a 1st level spell even if you have to burn a higher level spell slot to cast it, which means that a druid/life cleric can only ever get 40 hp out of each casting.

Another thing to consider is that each berry provides you with a whole day's worth of nourishment, which means that if you eat more than one in the same 24 hour period, your body will think you're overfeeding it ...

It doesn't matter if the spell scales.. if you use a 4th level slot, it is a 4th level spell.

 

[pukunui]

It doesn't matter if the spell scales.. if you use a 4th level slot, it is a 4th level spell.

Ah. I misremembered that rule. Just went and checked.

 

[Flamestrike]

None of this has been the case in my games. Goodberry is ok, not great.

The game is already too easy, at least it is for my players. They are punching way above recommended XP and still not having many problems. Hardest part of 5E is level 1 to 3, after that life is pretty easy for parties. 5E is a very basic game that is easy to game.

Are you enforcing the 6-9 encounter adventuring day, and short rests no more than 2 times per day?

 

[Celtavian]

Are you enforcing the 6-9 encounter adventuring day, and short rests no more than 2 times per day?

No. I'm exceeding this encounter design concept in power and scale slowly to find out exactly where the point is that fights will be a challenge. My group is exceptionally proficient at tactical group play and min/maxing. The standard game is not built for challenging such players. I have to custom create encounters to challenge them or they will run over everything.

 

[DEFCON 1]

A problem that hasn't occurred isn't a problem.

Until a DM actually has a player that has multiclassed a druid and a life cleric and has experienced this Goodberry issue in play... there's nothing to worry about. And even when they do have a druid/cleric multiclass character in the group, who knows if that out of combat healing is actually a problem?

The game is so huge with so many permutations that the odds of someone player actually reaching a point and having selected the exact formula of abilities to create these "broken" combos is barely a concern. Especially once they end up in play and discover that actually gameplay reduces the so-called brokeness substantially.

Or of course just do the easiest solution... ignore Sage Advice.

 

[Flamestrike]

No. I'm exceeding this encounter design concept in power and scale slowly to find out exactly where the point is that fights will be a challenge. .

So are you throwing more than 6-9 encounters at them between long rests, or less?

How often do you allow short rests?

 

[ExploderWizard]

Prayer of Healing: Up to six creatures of your choice that you can see within range each regain hit points equal to 2d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier...healing increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 2nd.

So life Cleric with 16 Wis is 2d8+3+4 (16 * 6 = 96, or 102 with 18 wis). Cast as a 3rd level spell, it's 3d8+3+5 (21.5 x 6 = 129). And no multiclassing involved. And it's fine in combat or out. And doesn't take concentration, which means the same cleric can cast it along with Beacon of Hope to get 138 or 192 hp from it. And I am unaware of any games breaking from it.

I don't know how your gang runs combat, but round these parts a healing spell with a casting time of 10 MINUTES is not a wise choice.

 

[Celtavian]

So are you throwing more than 6-9 encounters at them between long rests, or less?

How often do you allow short rests?

I explained to you that I am exceeding the 6 to 9 encounters in power and scale. What do you consider an encounter? The daily xp budgets are way above recommended usually lumped into big encounters the equivalent of three or four encounters at once.

The party takes short rests when they need them. Sometimes they don't need any, sometimes they take a few per day. It all depends. I allow them when the encounter situation allows for it. I would say on average they use 1 short rest a day. The plow encounters very easily.

I can't run modules as recommended. They are far too easy when I do. If I follow the recommended 6-9 encounters per day, the party plows the encounters. I know you're hopping into this discussion now. I've already done this song and dance with other people. I run with veteran gamers with an average of thirty years of experience each coming from Pathfinder/3E. Min-maxing is as natural as walking to them. They group synergize well. Warlock with devil's sight and darkness with heavy armor due to fighter levels and Eldritch Blast build that works on keeping a pool of temporary hit points. Vengeance paladin with Sentinel and Heavy Armor Mastery. Bard using hypnotic pattern to great effect. Light cleric with healing and AoE. Rogue/Sorcerer and Ranger Marksman with Sharpshooter. Lots of scouting and stealth. Ambushing to gain surprise. Lots of ranged attacking to soften up opponents with precise use of magic to control encounters. Please don't start giving me ideas to counter this stuff. I already know how to do that and you can't use such tactics every single encounter meaning of the 6-9 per day, their tactics will work on 60 to 90% of the monsters they face with the rare carefully tailored encounter to counter their tactics and provide a serious challenge.

5E is not built to challenge min-max players. No edition of D&D is. If you run a group of min-maxers, you always have to tailor things to challenge them or they'll roll over the game like tanks. It's been that way in every edition of D&D save perhaps the very beginning when the game was extremely lethal. It's not a big deal. I just have to learn how far I can push it without killing them.

 

[Flamestrike]

I explained to you that I am exceeding the 6 to 9 encounters in power and scale. What do you consider an encounter? The daily xp budgets are way above recommended usually lumped into big encounters the equivalent of three or four encounters at once.

The party takes short rests when they need them. Sometimes they don't need any, sometimes they take a few per day. It all depends. I allow them when the encounter situation allows for it. I would say on average they use 1 short rest a day. The plow encounters very easily.

I can't run modules as recommended. They are far too easy when I do. If I follow the recommended 6-9 encounters per day, the party plows the encounters. I know you're hopping into this discussion now. I've already done this song and dance with other people. I run with veteran gamers with an average of thirty years of experience each coming from Pathfinder/3E. Min-maxing is as natural as walking to them. They group synergize well. Warlock with devil's sight and darkness with heavy armor due to fighter levels and Eldritch Blast build that works on keeping a pool of temporary hit points. Vengeance paladin with Sentinel and Heavy Armor Mastery. Bard using hypnotic pattern to great effect. Light cleric with healing and AoE. Rogue/Sorcerer and Ranger Marksman with Sharpshooter. Lots of scouting and stealth. Ambushing to gain surprise. Lots of ranged attacking to soften up opponents with precise use of magic to control encounters. Please don't start giving me ideas to counter this stuff. I already know how to do that and you can't use such tactics every single encounter meaning of the 6-9 per day, their tactics will work on 60 to 90% of the monsters they face with the rare carefully tailored encounter to counter their tactics and provide a serious challenge.

5E is not built to challenge min-max players. No edition of D&D is. If you run a group of min-maxers, you always have to tailor things to challenge them or they'll roll over the game like tanks. It's been that way in every edition of D&D save perhaps the very beginning when the game was extremely lethal. It's not a big deal. I just have to learn how far I can push it without killing them.

Chill out bro. Just asking.

Its Just normally when I hear the above complaints it's from DMs who don't get the encounter and rest pacing expectations of 5e. You're on top of it from the looks of it.

I haven't found this to be a problem myself and I DM a strong party myself.

Just curious is all.

 

[Shiroiken]

A problem that hasn't occurred isn't a problem.

Until a DM actually has a player that has multiclassed a druid and a life cleric and has experienced this Goodberry issue in play... there's nothing to worry about. And even when they do have a druid/cleric multiclass character in the group, who knows if that out of combat healing is actually a problem?

The game is so huge with so many permutations that the odds of someone player actually reaching a point and having selected the exact formula of abilities to create these "broken" combos is barely a concern. Especially once they end up in play and discover that actually gameplay reduces the so-called brokeness substantially.

I'd agree with this. People (myself including) tend to freak out about possible problems before seeing them in play.

I did have a Life Cleric who took the Magic Initiate Feat because he wanted to dip into Druid (for RP reasons). With this ruling, he probably would have decided to take the 1 level MC instead. It's moot anyway, because he died before the ruling came out.

Or of course just do the easiest solution... ignore Sage Advice.

This is by far the best solution. While I read Sage Advice, I'm mostly looking for problems that haven't come up yet, so I can prepare my own ruling. I found this particular ruling odd because it goes against their previous setup of "one bonus per spell" from things like Scorching Ray and Eldritch Blast. I strive for consistency, so I want them to both work the same way.