D&D 5E breaking the healing rules with goodberries

Coredump

First Post
[MENTION=67338]GMforPowergamers[/MENTION]: goodberry doesn't scale, so it'll always be considered a 1st level spell even if you have to burn a higher level spell slot to cast it, which means that a druid/life cleric can only ever get 40 hp out of each casting.

Another thing to consider is that each berry provides you with a whole day's worth of nourishment, which means that if you eat more than one in the same 24 hour period, your body will think you're overfeeding it ...

It doesn't matter if the spell scales.. if you use a 4th level slot, it is a 4th level spell.
 

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None of this has been the case in my games. Goodberry is ok, not great.

The game is already too easy, at least it is for my players. They are punching way above recommended XP and still not having many problems. Hardest part of 5E is level 1 to 3, after that life is pretty easy for parties. 5E is a very basic game that is easy to game.

Are you enforcing the 6-9 encounter adventuring day, and short rests no more than 2 times per day?
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Are you enforcing the 6-9 encounter adventuring day, and short rests no more than 2 times per day?

No. I'm exceeding this encounter design concept in power and scale slowly to find out exactly where the point is that fights will be a challenge. My group is exceptionally proficient at tactical group play and min/maxing. The standard game is not built for challenging such players. I have to custom create encounters to challenge them or they will run over everything.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
A problem that hasn't occurred isn't a problem.

Until a DM actually has a player that has multiclassed a druid and a life cleric and has experienced this Goodberry issue in play... there's nothing to worry about. And even when they do have a druid/cleric multiclass character in the group, who knows if that out of combat healing is actually a problem?

The game is so huge with so many permutations that the odds of someone player actually reaching a point and having selected the exact formula of abilities to create these "broken" combos is barely a concern. Especially once they end up in play and discover that actually gameplay reduces the so-called brokeness substantially.

Or of course just do the easiest solution... ignore Sage Advice.
 


Prayer of Healing: Up to six creatures of your choice that you can see within range each regain hit points equal to 2d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier...healing increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 2nd.

So life Cleric with 16 Wis is 2d8+3+4 (16 * 6 = 96, or 102 with 18 wis). Cast as a 3rd level spell, it's 3d8+3+5 (21.5 x 6 = 129). And no multiclassing involved. And it's fine in combat or out. And doesn't take concentration, which means the same cleric can cast it along with Beacon of Hope to get 138 or 192 hp from it. And I am unaware of any games breaking from it.

I don't know how your gang runs combat, but round these parts a healing spell with a casting time of 10 MINUTES is not a wise choice. :p
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
So are you throwing more than 6-9 encounters at them between long rests, or less?

How often do you allow short rests?

I explained to you that I am exceeding the 6 to 9 encounters in power and scale. What do you consider an encounter? The daily xp budgets are way above recommended usually lumped into big encounters the equivalent of three or four encounters at once.

The party takes short rests when they need them. Sometimes they don't need any, sometimes they take a few per day. It all depends. I allow them when the encounter situation allows for it. I would say on average they use 1 short rest a day. The plow encounters very easily.

I can't run modules as recommended. They are far too easy when I do. If I follow the recommended 6-9 encounters per day, the party plows the encounters. I know you're hopping into this discussion now. I've already done this song and dance with other people. I run with veteran gamers with an average of thirty years of experience each coming from Pathfinder/3E. Min-maxing is as natural as walking to them. They group synergize well. Warlock with devil's sight and darkness with heavy armor due to fighter levels and Eldritch Blast build that works on keeping a pool of temporary hit points. Vengeance paladin with Sentinel and Heavy Armor Mastery. Bard using hypnotic pattern to great effect. Light cleric with healing and AoE. Rogue/Sorcerer and Ranger Marksman with Sharpshooter. Lots of scouting and stealth. Ambushing to gain surprise. Lots of ranged attacking to soften up opponents with precise use of magic to control encounters. Please don't start giving me ideas to counter this stuff. I already know how to do that and you can't use such tactics every single encounter meaning of the 6-9 per day, their tactics will work on 60 to 90% of the monsters they face with the rare carefully tailored encounter to counter their tactics and provide a serious challenge.

5E is not built to challenge min-max players. No edition of D&D is. If you run a group of min-maxers, you always have to tailor things to challenge them or they'll roll over the game like tanks. It's been that way in every edition of D&D save perhaps the very beginning when the game was extremely lethal. It's not a big deal. I just have to learn how far I can push it without killing them.
 

I explained to you that I am exceeding the 6 to 9 encounters in power and scale. What do you consider an encounter? The daily xp budgets are way above recommended usually lumped into big encounters the equivalent of three or four encounters at once.

The party takes short rests when they need them. Sometimes they don't need any, sometimes they take a few per day. It all depends. I allow them when the encounter situation allows for it. I would say on average they use 1 short rest a day. The plow encounters very easily.

I can't run modules as recommended. They are far too easy when I do. If I follow the recommended 6-9 encounters per day, the party plows the encounters. I know you're hopping into this discussion now. I've already done this song and dance with other people. I run with veteran gamers with an average of thirty years of experience each coming from Pathfinder/3E. Min-maxing is as natural as walking to them. They group synergize well. Warlock with devil's sight and darkness with heavy armor due to fighter levels and Eldritch Blast build that works on keeping a pool of temporary hit points. Vengeance paladin with Sentinel and Heavy Armor Mastery. Bard using hypnotic pattern to great effect. Light cleric with healing and AoE. Rogue/Sorcerer and Ranger Marksman with Sharpshooter. Lots of scouting and stealth. Ambushing to gain surprise. Lots of ranged attacking to soften up opponents with precise use of magic to control encounters. Please don't start giving me ideas to counter this stuff. I already know how to do that and you can't use such tactics every single encounter meaning of the 6-9 per day, their tactics will work on 60 to 90% of the monsters they face with the rare carefully tailored encounter to counter their tactics and provide a serious challenge.

5E is not built to challenge min-max players. No edition of D&D is. If you run a group of min-maxers, you always have to tailor things to challenge them or they'll roll over the game like tanks. It's been that way in every edition of D&D save perhaps the very beginning when the game was extremely lethal. It's not a big deal. I just have to learn how far I can push it without killing them.

Chill out bro. Just asking.

Its Just normally when I hear the above complaints it's from DMs who don't get the encounter and rest pacing expectations of 5e. You're on top of it from the looks of it.

I haven't found this to be a problem myself and I DM a strong party myself.

Just curious is all.
 

A problem that hasn't occurred isn't a problem.

Until a DM actually has a player that has multiclassed a druid and a life cleric and has experienced this Goodberry issue in play... there's nothing to worry about. And even when they do have a druid/cleric multiclass character in the group, who knows if that out of combat healing is actually a problem?

The game is so huge with so many permutations that the odds of someone player actually reaching a point and having selected the exact formula of abilities to create these "broken" combos is barely a concern. Especially once they end up in play and discover that actually gameplay reduces the so-called brokeness substantially.
I'd agree with this. People (myself including) tend to freak out about possible problems before seeing them in play.

I did have a Life Cleric who took the Magic Initiate Feat because he wanted to dip into Druid (for RP reasons). With this ruling, he probably would have decided to take the 1 level MC instead. It's moot anyway, because he died before the ruling came out.

Or of course just do the easiest solution... ignore Sage Advice.
This is by far the best solution. While I read Sage Advice, I'm mostly looking for problems that haven't come up yet, so I can prepare my own ruling. I found this particular ruling odd because it goes against their previous setup of "one bonus per spell" from things like Scorching Ray and Eldritch Blast. I strive for consistency, so I want them to both work the same way.
 

Prayer of Healing: Up to six creatures of your choice that you can see within range each regain hit points equal to 2d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier...healing increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 2nd.

So life Cleric with 16 Wis is 2d8+3+4 (16 * 6 = 96, or 102 with 18 wis). Cast as a 3rd level spell, it's 3d8+3+5 (21.5 x 6 = 129). And no multiclassing involved. And it's fine in combat or out. And doesn't take concentration, which means the same cleric can cast it along with Beacon of Hope to get 138 or 192 hp from it. And I am unaware of any games breaking from it.

except this breaks the game because you can do BOTH for the same coast.... aka you can go farther with the goodberries then without the 24hr durratio cast at 8pm means the next day you still have your slots... Someone up thread said there used to be an 8 berry limit per person, without it this is abusive.
 

As for it being broken - is prayer of healing broken? Is aura of vitality? Hit dice? Healing potions? The Healer feat? Healing between encounters isn't difficult in 5e. I have not heard of anyone's games breaking because they found a way for the party to fully heal up between encounters, and in fact I've found that's pretty common and the rules account for it just fine.

all of the things you mention are applyable with or without this problem... and coast something...

if you cast prayer of healing you use a spell slot that could be used for hold person or a damage spell or a buff spell to heal, with this cheat you can heal AND have the slot free for those things....
 

I don't really think this is that much of a problem. I mean, do people know players who are jumping on this life cleric/druid bandwagon or are they continuing to level their druid or their cleric? I know that if I had a cleric or druid I would in all likelihood keep leveling them up in the same class, I wouldn't level dip just for this. I'm not saying that everyone wouldn't, I'm sure there are some people who jump at the chance to boost certain aspects of a character, I just don't think that every player playing a healer is going to.

I have not seen it in play, I was reading the sage advice thread and someone had the idea and I started to say it expecting it to be very little. however even the 20hp of a 1st level druid with no life cleric at 1st level is pretty big... at 2nd level going to 120 is huge...
 

Remathilis

Legend
The scenario assumes a few conveniences though.

1.) The berries last for 24 hours. The OP assumes you blow all your spell slots the night before, long rest, and then take the berries with you into the dungeon. Now, you're on the clock. A minimum of 8 hours is spent on the rest, and unless you camp out right in front of the dungeon's mouth, you have travel time as well. A DM can make things hard on the Goodberry producer by making sure the dungeon is more than a days travel and pitching a random encounter a day before they make it (having the simultaneous benefit of depleting berries and spells slots to make more).

2.) The stated benefit of this method is that the druid can keep his spell slots for the next day and still carry his full allotment of spells worth of berries. That works, for one day. The next day, if they group hasn't finished their objective, those berries aren't going to survive day 2. Furthermore, unless the druid didn't use a single spell slot in day 1 (defeating the purpose of casting it the night before), he can't create nearly as many berries for day 2 (greatly reducing the usefulness of the trick).

3.) Berry healing might top off a combat hp, but it doesn't eliminate a short rest. You still need those for encounter abilities. It just makes hit dice redundant by spreading out their benefit over every encounter instead of bursts twice or so.

This might play havoc on a AP like OotA, but home play can begin to adjust for said tactic in a lot of ways. More encounters (in the range of 7-10) and /or with harder foes (adjust to make them one category harder; no easy, more deadly) should stretch their limits. Add a few more monsters to an encounter, give the bad guy boss some extra goons, and up the number of traps and such. If your PCs insist on coming in with an extra day's worth of healing, then make it worth it to them.
 

No. I'm exceeding this encounter design concept in power and scale slowly to find out exactly where the point is that fights will be a challenge. My group is exceptionally proficient at tactical group play and min/maxing. The standard game is not built for challenging such players. I have to custom create encounters to challenge them or they will run over everything.

Yes I have found my own group (a mix of powergamers and experienced players) have 2 types of encounters.... the cake walk and the grind. I would say 1/3 of my encounters end after 2 rounds with 1 or two PCs having taken little damage, and no real resourse usage (spell casters still have slots, fighter still has action surge ect.). the other 2/3 are what I call grind ones. No one was really in danger in that one fight, but resources (spells and features) got used and atleast 1pc is at half hp or lower and they all have some hp damage... put enough to gather and have a big encounter at the end and that last encounter is actually hard...

Because of the 1hr short rest my PCs don't spend HD a lot, I would say 3 out of 10 adventure days they manage to take short rests at all.

in my game going into encounter 2 4 or 5 with full hp for no resource coast would change the challenge of fights 4 and 5 considerable.
 

5E is not built to challenge min-max players. No edition of D&D is. If you run a group of min-maxers, you always have to tailor things to challenge them or they'll roll over the game like tanks. It's been that way in every edition of D&D save perhaps the very beginning when the game was extremely lethal. It's not a big deal. I just have to learn how far I can push it without killing them.

If a few of them do get killed so what? D&D characters are like Doritos- crunch all you want, the players can make more. There is nothing wrong with encounters that result in the death of a few PCs if they try and tackle them head on. There is more to skilled play than just blowing up everything with super builds. Knowing when a straight up fight is suicide is also a part of skilled play. If the players never face anything that can just flat out kill them then those lessons are never learned.
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Yes I have found my own group (a mix of powergamers and experienced players) have 2 types of encounters.... the cake walk and the grind. I would say 1/3 of my encounters end after 2 rounds with 1 or two PCs having taken little damage, and no real resourse usage (spell casters still have slots, fighter still has action surge ect.). the other 2/3 are what I call grind ones. No one was really in danger in that one fight, but resources (spells and features) got used and atleast 1pc is at half hp or lower and they all have some hp damage... put enough to gather and have a big encounter at the end and that last encounter is actually hard...

Because of the 1hr short rest my PCs don't spend HD a lot, I would say 3 out of 10 adventure days they manage to take short rests at all.

in my game going into encounter 2 4 or 5 with full hp for no resource coast would change the challenge of fights 4 and 5 considerable.

I really don't mind them getting to max hit points for encounters. I run encounters in a fashion that most are continuous enough not to give time to consume tons of berries. So my players aren't motivated to use the tactic. I could see them do it now and again. If they did, I wouldn't mind because likely they would need the extra healing. If it negatively impacts encounters, you should definitely ignore the Sage.
 
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The scenario assumes a few conveniences though.

1.) The berries last for 24 hours. The OP assumes you blow all your spell slots the night before, long rest, and then take the berries with you into the dungeon. Now, you're on the clock. A minimum of 8 hours is spent on the rest, and unless you camp out right in front of the dungeon's mouth, you have travel time as well. A DM can make things hard on the Goodberry producer by making sure the dungeon is more than a days travel and pitching a random encounter a day before they make it (having the simultaneous benefit of depleting berries and spells slots to make more).

yes, as I said in the OP as you level I at least have found planning and easy travel to be easier, and the higher the level the more abusive it is... also remember day 1 in a dungeon or traveling is the biggest, but not nessacarly the only time it works...



2.) The stated benefit of this method is that the druid can keep his spell slots for the next day and still carry his full allotment of spells worth of berries. That works, for one day. The next day, if they group hasn't finished their objective, those berries aren't going to survive day 2. Furthermore, unless the druid didn't use a single spell slot in day 1 (defeating the purpose of casting it the night before), he can't create nearly as many berries for day 2 (greatly reducing the usefulness of the trick).

at levels 1-5 I assume few casters go to bed with more then 1 slot left most adventureing days... but what about after. If we end the day and I have a 2nd and a 3rd level spell left there is no reason not to just pop them for 10 berries at 5hp each and 10 at 6hp each... it isn't huge but it is more then any other combo can give.


AND to both 1 and 2 remember if a dungeon or adventure has 15 encounters, 13 pure combat 1 could be combat or RP, and one just a trap that can be spread over multi days and assumes most parties can't do more then 6-9 combats in day... this refreshing of hp for no resource cost could still make a HUGE difference day 1...

party with out trick may do 3 encounters then a short rest then 3 encounters then a short rest then 2 encoutners and take a long rest...only getting half way like the designers intend.

the party with the trick hits every encounter at full hp, if that is enough as I think it would be you could do 5 encounters then a short rest, then 5 encounters and a short rest then do 3 encounters and a long rest... you hit those last 2 encounters MUCH more healthy and resources in this scenario

3.) Berry healing might top off a combat hp, but it doesn't eliminate a short rest. You still need those for encounter abilities. It just makes hit dice redundant by spreading out their benefit over every encounter instead of bursts twice or so.
it allows to spread the short rest and improve there results...
This might play havoc on a AP like OotA, but home play can begin to adjust for said tactic in a lot of ways. More encounters (in the range of 7-10) and /or with harder foes (adjust to make them one category harder; no easy, more deadly) should stretch their limits. Add a few more monsters to an encounter, give the bad guy boss some extra goons, and up the number of traps and such. If your PCs insist on coming in with an extra day's worth of healing, then make it worth it to them.

anything CAN be adjusted at home games...
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I don't know how your gang runs combat, but round these parts a healing spell with a casting time of 10 MINUTES is not a wise choice. :p

Ah right, it's out of combat, didn't notice that part. Ah well, point remains, it's heals your whole party essentially, and nobody has reported broken games from it. It's the same effect in essence on your game as goodberry.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
except this breaks the game because you can do BOTH for the same coast

So? That's meaningless. A healed party is a healed party. There is no reason to heal them once healed. The issue remains whether you can heal between battles or not - and you can. The restraint on the game remains the other limited resources available to the party. The battlemaster's run out of dice, the Warlock needs to recharge, the wizard has run out of spell slots, the bard is out of inspiration dice, the charged magic items are dangerously close to or at empty, the druid is out of shapechanges, etc.. Which, at least when I play, has always been the limitation on the day in 5e, even during the playtest. In fact I seem to recall during the playtest this was even moreso going on. This is how this version of the game is intended to operate. Nothing breaks. And I will note - nobody has reported a broken game.

all of the things you mention are applyable with or without this problem... and coast something...

Oh please, the Healer Feat costs charges of a healer kit, which is practically free. Far less costly than a 1st level spell, even one cast the day before (making it unusable if there is an ambush at night). And most of the rest of those are similar costs. The point is, healing between encounters is plentiful, and part of the game...not broken. I mean, when you've been playing the game, have you not been healing between encounters fairly often?

NOBODY has reported the game breaking from healing between encounters. All this is, is yet another way to do it. Big whoop. You go ahead and count out and save your little berries in a special cushioned basket, count each 4hp out, count each 24 hour period out, and track it all. Most people will choose another of the many methods of healing between encounters...one a bit less lame than berry accounting.

if you cast prayer of healing you use a spell slot that could be used for hold person or a damage spell or a buff spell to heal, with this cheat you can heal AND have the slot free for those things....

It's not a cheat. You making it a big issue without even bothering to ask if it's actually a problem for people's games. It's not. Notice the underwhelming reaction you're getting from people who play the game? It's just another method (one some people already used).

but what about after. If we end the day and I have a 2nd and a 3rd level spell left there is no reason not to just pop them for 10 berries at 5hp each and 10 at 6hp each... it isn't huge but it is more then any other combo can give.

Prayer of Healing currently does double that healing for those same spell slots. So does Aura of Vitality.
 
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