D&D 5E Assassinate

[MG.0]

So how many times does this Thread come up?

Tells me that Surprise/Assassinate is broken

...or that there are multiple valid interpretations of the rules a reasonable person may make. That's not necessarily the same as broken.

 

[Arial Black]

So how many times does this Thread come up?

Tells me that Surprise/Assassinate is broken

Or it shows the downside of not having comprehensive rules!

Would it have killed them to actually state when 'surprise' ends?

 

[bgbarcus]

Or it shows the downside of not having comprehensive rules!

Would it have killed them to actually state when 'surprise' ends?

Lack of comprehensive rules is one of the good features of 5e. Every table should play its own unique flavor. Having written rules for every possibility makes that a battle between rules lawyer players and DM fiat.

 

[Arial Black]

Lack of comprehensive rules is one of the good features of 5e. Every table should play its own unique flavor. Having written rules for every possibility makes that a battle between rules lawyer players and DM fiat.

It has both good and bad consequences. The good ones include the things you mention, and the bad ones include the totally avoidable intransigent disagreements in this thread which would not exist if a better definition of either 'surprise' or 'Assassinate' had been written.

 

[Hriston]

This is an excellent point!

Thanks!

Whatever way we run the encounter, it must be able to fairly adjudicate the events, for both assassin and target.

Agreed, just as if a PC was the target of an NPC assassin.

Now, all of this should be obvious. What may not be so obvious is that if you mess with the way encounters are run then you mess with the 'fairness' of the whole thing. For example, if you choose to run combats by letting the assassin get a free attack outside of the first combat round, then you artificially deny the target from noticing the threat and possibly (separately) being faster on the draw than the assassin.

I agree with the latter. I don't think anyone has suggested letting the assassin auto-crit without first determining whether the target is surprised, but if they have then I agree with your former point as well. I rather think that what has been suggested is to allow the assassin to attack after surprise has been determined, but before initiative is rolled, with the justification that the target is surprised. In this case the chance to notice the threat has been given, but not the chance to react quickly.

Roll initiative. There are four possibilities: surprise/assassin faster, surprise/victim faster, no surprise/assassin faster, no surprise/victim faster.

The normal way to run combat copes with all four possibilities with aplomb:-

Your use of the word "normal" here is problematic due to the disagreements we've had over the duration for which a creature is surprised. If you don't mind, I'll just point out where I disagree.

* surprise/assassin faster: undetected, the assassin shoots at the surprised victim. If it hits, it will auto-crit, and the victim will not be surprised any more.

I agree that it auto-crits, but disagree that the victim is no longer surprised. Until the end of its turn, the victim may be hit with more attacks and remain surprised. Once it has been determined that the victim is surprised, noticing a threat does not make it unsurprised.

If it misses, the arrow clattering against the stonework gives the game away, so the victim is no longer surprised (DM ruling; he may have ruled that the arrow went out of the open window and the assassin remains undetected and the victim is still surprised. He may have called for a skill check, or used another method).

I agree that the attack gives away the assassin's location, but I disagree that it is not given away in the case of an arrow flying out a window. The rules are clear that an attack from hiding gives away the attacker's position both when the attack hits or when it misses. The granularity of an attack going unnoticed is not present and would represent an addition to the rules.

Next, the victim's turn. He is now aware that he is in combat, but he has only just noticed this and he is still caught on his heels. Because he was surprised at the start of the encounter, he cannot act or move on his first turn, even though he is no longer surprised now.

This is the crux of our disagreement. How much sense does it make to say that the victim has fully recovered from being surprised and yet is unable to move or act?

If the assassin had missed but the DM ruled that the victim didn't notice (by whatever method), then the victim is still surprised on round 2 and if the assassin shoots again, it will auto-crit. The victim can now act on his turn because the non-act penalty for being surprised only applies to his first turn. The victim cannot attack the assassin though, because he simply doesn't know that there is an assassin!

Even though he's been hit? I'm just not following the logic here. Being hit (or missed) by an attack gives the assassin's location away. At that point the victim knows there is an assassin.

* surprise/victim faster: victim goes first, but cannot move or act. After this, he may use reactions. Note that this doesn't give him a way to use reactions against things he doesn't know about; this is true whether or not he is surprised!

He doesn't need to use his reaction against something he doesn't know about because the timing of the reaction is predicated upon his being hit with an attack, at which point he does know about his attacker.

The assassin shoots, getting an auto-crit if it hits.

Obviously, I disagree with this due to the victim's turn having passed.

The PC can use reactions, and may have shield or Uncanny Dodge or some other reaction that may help. The trouble is that you can no more use reactions against attacks you don't know anything about, than you can make attacks against foes you don't know anything about!

Once you've been hit or missed you do know about the assassin and his attack. That's what triggers the reaction. The timing of the reaction specifies that you can use it against the triggering attack when the attack hits you.

It would be just as wrong for the DM to allow shield from the victim against this unknown attack as he would to allow the victim to actually attack the assassin he doesn't know anything about! It doesn't need that to be written in the spell description; it is part of the DM's job to adjudicate fairly.

Just to reiterate, once Shield is triggered the attack is no longer unknown.

Note that if the assassin broke cover and ran at the victim with a knife (instead of shooting from hidden), then the victim could use a reaction against that attack, because he is now aware that there is an attack!

The victim actually can't use his reaction until he is hit with the attack. The rules simply don't support the level of granularity you are suggesting. You can add it if you want, but it isn't found in the rules.

* not surprised/assassin faster: victim realises that there is danger and is now alert. When the assassin shoots, the victim can use reactions against it! He is watching for danger and can see/hear the arrow in enough time to use Uncanny Dodge or cast shield.

Not only does the victim see the attack coming, but being unsurprised means that he knows where the assassin is and from which direction the attack will come. The victim may cast Shield if the attack is a hit, but Uncanny Dodge has the added requirement that the attacker be seen, which presumably the assassin is not since he was just attempting to hide.

* not surprised/victim faster: so, he thinks he's got the drop on me, eh? Take that, you filthy murderer! The victim attacks the assassin that he did, in fact, notice! Note that this possibility is taken away if you let the assassin attack before combat starts(!).

Agreed, but due to the assassin remaining unseen, although not hidden, the victim makes his attack with disadvantage. Also, I'm still not sure what the purpose would be of allowing the assassin to attack before it is determined whether the victim is surprised or not, since the victim's surprise is where the assassin gains his ability to auto-crit from.

 

[epithet]

... How much sense does it make to say that the victim has fully recovered from being surprised and yet is unable to move or act?
...

I think there is a difference between "surprised" and "not fully recovered from being surprised." I see surprised as a single moment, the point at which the attacker's roll is opposed by the victim's passive score. That determines surprise, and what follows thereafter--the process by which the victim recovers--is not surprise, but is only the effects of surprise.

That's why I am opposed to allowing the victim to avoid the assassinate feature with a lucky initiative roll. The role to determine whether the auto-crit from assassinate should apply was the assassin's, opposed by the victim's passive score. That is the victim's one and only chance to perceive the threat before the blade strikes.

We're not talking about the advantage on attacks before the victim takes a turn in the combat part, we're talking about the part that clearly states that the assassin's hit against a surprised target is an automatic critical. The automatic critical should be a function of the surprise determination, not a subsequent initiative roll.

 

[Coredump]

One way I deal with this, is to give the assassin advantage on his Initiative check if I think it is warranted.

 

[Hriston]

I think there is a difference between "surprised" and "not fully recovered from being surprised." I see surprised as a single moment, the point at which the attacker's roll is opposed by the victim's passive score. That determines surprise, and what follows thereafter--the process by which the victim recovers--is not surprise, but is only the effects of surprise.

That's why I am opposed to allowing the victim to avoid the assassinate feature with a lucky initiative roll. The role to determine whether the auto-crit from assassinate should apply was the assassin's, opposed by the victim's passive score. That is the victim's one and only chance to perceive the threat before the blade strikes.

We're not talking about the advantage on attacks before the victim takes a turn in the combat part, we're talking about the part that clearly states that the assassin's hit against a surprised target is an automatic critical. The automatic critical should be a function of the surprise determination, not a subsequent initiative roll.

What does this sort of surprise look like narratively? It seems to me that what you're describing here is a surprise that is either on or off. The idea, if I understand it correctly, is that once the target fails to notice the hiding assassin (or any accomplices the assassin may have as well), he becomes surprised, and that he stays surprised long enough for the assassin to attack him no matter how quickly he is otherwise able to react. It's as if the target has been marked with "surprise", making him vulnerable to the auto-crit, for having failed his Perception check. There is no indication here for how long he is marked in this way. It could conceivably be for the duration of the combat, or longer, but of course this doesn't make much narrative sense, and I don't think that is what you are saying.

I find it notable, however, that you seem to conflate the narrative moment of surprise with the point at which surprise is determined. The Stealth/Perception contest, the outcome of which determines if the target is surprised, is better associated, for me, with the assassin's attempt to hide. The individual Stealth roll determines if the assassin is hidden, and if there are no other noticeable threats present, it is at that point that the DM knows that the target will begin the combat surprised.

Narratively, at least for me, the target isn't actually surprised yet. He doesn't know there is an assassin and goes about his business accordingly. I'm sure you would narrate this in much the same way, because even though surprise has been determined, the moment of surprise has not yet occurred. As someone pointed out up-thread, it's a potential waiting to happen. At this point it depends on the attackers following through on their attack. If they change their minds, and the attack never happens, then the determination of surprise is of no value, because there will be no surprise.

The target actually becomes surprised at the start of the combat, which I understand to mean the commencement of hostilities. Surprise is caused by the revelation of things that are unexpected. What surprises the target is the sudden onslaught of a battle he was not expecting just a moment ago. He is now surprised, which means that he is showing and/or feeling surprise, but to take advantage of this the assassin needs to attack the target before the surprise wears off. To score an auto-crit, the assassin needs to hit a creature that is surprised. There must be a point at which you don't get an auto-crit because you are hitting a creature that was once surprised, but now is no longer surprised.

It really comes down to how you think a creature in this game shows surprise. How is a creature affected when attacked from hiding, unexpectedly? The creature is unable to move or act for a certain time. That is how it shows us that it is surprised. That is what "surprised" means, at least to me.

 

[sithramir]

I don't like the idea of giving the assassin advantage on his initiative because this gives more chance he gets 2 turns before the victim gets to act. Whether you think he autocrits after the victims 1st turn or not I think the initiative determines how surprised the victim is. If they win initiative they can react faster and get to attack sooner. If they lose then assassin gets a second turn to attack.

 

[Arial Black]

The target actually becomes surprised at the start of the combat, which I understand to mean the commencement of hostilities. Surprise is caused by the revelation of things that are unexpected. What surprises the target is the sudden onslaught of a battle he was not expecting just a moment ago. He is now surprised, which means that he is showing and/or feeling surprise, but to take advantage of this the assassin needs to attack the target before the surprise wears off. To score an auto-crit, the assassin needs to hit a creature that is surprised. There must be a point at which you don't get an auto-crit because you are hitting a creature that was once surprised, but now is no longer surprised.

I was with you up til here.

If 'surprise' was caused by the 'revelation' of a previously unknown creature, this would mean that it's impossible to Assassinate a creature that cannot sense you. That having something with fantasy leprousy (so cannot feel anything) is immune to auto-crits while he is asleep!

Next, if the target was surprised because he didn't notice the threat at the beginning of combat, how will he suddenly not be surprised any more at a certain point in round one if nothing that he knows about has changed? If the target rolled a higher initiative, his turn occurs before the assassin actually does anything. If surprise is 'caused' by the 'revelation' of something unexpected, how can his state of being surprised end before something unexpected happens?