D&D 5E Assassinate

[Hriston]

I was with you up til here.

If 'surprise' was caused by the 'revelation' of a previously unknown creature, this would mean that it's impossible to Assassinate a creature that cannot sense you. That having something with fantasy leprousy (so cannot feel anything) is immune to auto-crits while he is asleep!

Not true! An attack from hiding unequivocally reveals your position when it hits or misses. Creatures know when they are being attacked. If they don't they have worse problems than being surprised.

Next, if the target was surprised because he didn't notice the threat at the beginning of combat, how will he suddenly not be surprised any more at a certain point in round one if nothing that he knows about has changed? If the target rolled a higher initiative, his turn occurs before the assassin actually does anything. If surprise is 'caused' by the 'revelation' of something unexpected, how can his state of being surprised end before something unexpected happens?

All turns in the round are simultaneous. If the target has the higher initiative that means his turn is resolved before the assassin's. It does not mean that the assassin does not begin attacking until after the target's turn is over. Just that the attack doesn't hit until after the target's turn is over.

 

[Arial Black]

Not true! An attack from hiding unequivocally reveals your position when it hits or misses. Creatures know when they are being attacked. If they don't they have worse problems than being surprised.

How do creatures know they are being attacked if they cannot sense it?

All turns in the round are simultaneous. If the target has the higher initiative that means his turn is resolved before the assassin's. It does not mean that the assassin does not begin attacking until after the target's turn is over. Just that the attack doesn't hit until after the target's turn is over.

If the actions are simultaneous, then if the assassin, on his turn, breaks from cover to attack, then the defender can target the assassin on the grounds that he will break cover on a lower initiative score, even though he's still unseen and round a corner when the defender's initiative comes up?

Player: I'll attack the assassin with my greatsword.
DM: You can't, because the assassin is 30 feet away and around the corner.
Player: But the assassin will come around the corner and attack me with his dagger this round, and since all actions are simultaneous then he'll be there for me to smite.

It seems like you run combats at the quantum level. I'm not sure that the rules intend this.

 

[Hriston]

How do creatures know they are being attacked if they cannot sense it?

Good point. I was assuming we were talking about a creature with which it could be said you were in combat, i.e. one that would be capable of defending itself or in some way countering the actions of the assassin. If the creature you are describing is truly without senses and unconscious, however, then I don't suppose there would be any point in rolling initiative or beginning a combat. In fact, all attacks within 5' against such a creature are auto-crits and have advantage, and the creature is incapable of movement or action. So to determine that this creature is surprised would be almost completely pointless since the creature's condition makes almost any attack just as effective as one that uses Assassinate.

If the actions are simultaneous, then if the assassin, on his turn, breaks from cover to attack, then the defender can target the assassin on the grounds that he will break cover on a lower initiative score, even though he's still unseen and round a corner when the defender's initiative comes up?

Player: I'll attack the assassin with my greatsword.
DM: You can't, because the assassin is 30 feet away and around the corner.
Player: But the assassin will come around the corner and attack me with his dagger this round, and since all actions are simultaneous then he'll be there for me to smite.

It seems like you run combats at the quantum level. I'm not sure that the rules intend this.

We were talking about a defender that was surprised, weren't we? If he's surprised he can't target anyone on his turn.

 

[aramis erak]

Huh? Can anyone explain how cloak of Elvenkind could give advantage on stealth checks for camouflaging you, but a cloak of invisibility wouldn't do the same? Thematically it should be even better.

Stealth is really 4 different skills rolled into one label...

The ability to move without attracting attention to oneself (by sight or sound), including in crowds
The ability to make use of environmental assets to remain undetected.
The ability to remain silent when in a high stress situation.
The ability to remain still when in a high stress situation

All of these count as uses of stealth...
Invisibility only blocks the sight portion. Should grant advantage when stealth isn't being tested against various forms of blindsight.
A cloak of the elvenkind camouflages and probably also muffles your gear's noises...

 

[MG.0]

A cloak of the elvenkind camouflages and probably also muffles your gear's noises...

Somebody else said that, but I'm not buying it. Boots of of elvenkind enable silent movement. The cloak of elvenkind says nothing about muffling anything, only camouflage giving advantage on stealth checks involving sight, while the cloak of invisibility provides...uh...invisibility.

Ergo - cloak of invisibility should beat cloak of elvenkind in every conceivable situation where truesight isn't involved.

This broken situation is a direct result of the limitations of the advantage/disadvantage mechanism. It is too coarse to allow for degrees of bonus/penalty, so we are forced into a bizarre situation. Obviously both cloaks help hide you, but there is no way to express the varying quality of that help using advantage/disadvantage. I think some tortured leaps of logic were taken to distinguish them instead of eliminating one or more iconic items from the game. I think this screams out for more granular adjustments on checks than adv/disadv allow.

 

[Hriston]

If the actions are simultaneous, then if the assassin, on his turn, breaks from cover to attack, then the defender can target the assassin on the grounds that he will break cover on a lower initiative score, even though he's still unseen and round a corner when the defender's initiative comes up?

Player: I'll attack the assassin with my greatsword.
DM: You can't, because the assassin is 30 feet away and around the corner.
Player: But the assassin will come around the corner and attack me with his dagger this round, and since all actions are simultaneous then he'll be there for me to smite.

It seems like you run combats at the quantum level. I'm not sure that the rules intend this.

We were talking about a defender that was surprised, weren't we? If he's surprised he can't target anyone on his turn.

For argument's sake, let's assume that he isn't surprised, as your example seems to suggest. First of all, how does the defender know, at the beginning of his turn, what the assassin is going to do? On your turn, you don't have the opportunity to wait and see what your opponent is doing and then act in response and have it still be your turn. In game terms, the closest you could come to this would be to Ready an action.

Second, since he has the initiative, why wouldn't the greatsword wielding defender run around the corner himself if what he wants to do is attack the assassin? It's only 30 feet. Most characters have that much movement. Maybe I don't get your point.

 

[Monk55]

Personally, I find it genuinely odd that people seem so concerned about the Rogue potentially getting a free crit once per battle that they're halving his chances for it by taking it away from him every time he rolls lower than his Surprised target during Initiative. Is the Assassin's damage really causing that much of a hardship for everybody that they feel like it needs to get nerfed?

Though it is difficult for me to imagine, in this edition initiative can negate surprise. The only way I can see to deal with this (and stay within the RAW) is to give the stealthy/hidden assassin advantage on the initiative roll and give the target disadvantage. Why? Because the assassin made the necessary stealth roll and is stealthy/hidden. The target doesn't know assassin exists! This will, somewhat, minimize the nerf to assassinate. I'm still trying to concoct a narrative for why the target (if they win initiative) can detect a hidden attacker 300' away that the target is walking away from. That's some serious intuition!

 

[Ovinomancer]

Though it is difficult for me to imagine, in this edition initiative can negate surprise. The only way I can see to deal with this (and stay within the RAW) is to give the stealthy/hidden assassin advantage on the initiative roll and give the target disadvantage. Why? Because the assassin made the necessary stealth roll and is stealthy/hidden. The target doesn't know assassin exists! This will, somewhat, minimize the nerf to assassinate. I'm still trying to concoct a narrative for why the target (if they win initiative) can detect a hidden attacker 300' away that the target is walking away from. That's some serious intuition!

Good ruling. But let's imagine a situation where there are two guards. The first guard fails to notice the assassin, whilst the second guard catches a glimpse of the assassin just before he begins to move. Do you give advantage on initiative to the assassin? Disadvantage to the first guard but not the second? Something else? What if assassin gets advantage, but because he does he beats the second guard's initiative when he wouldn't have otherwise? What if he then makes the second guard his target in the first round?

Oh the tangled webs we weave when first we practice giving advantage on initiative for surprise*.

*You know, gotta hand it to that Will guy, rhyming these things out is harder than it looks.

 

[Hriston]

I'm still trying to concoct a narrative for why the target (if they win initiative) can detect a hidden attacker 300' away that the target is walking away from. That's some serious intuition!

It's pretty simple. The target detects the attacker when s/he is hit or missed by the attack as per the rules for unseen attackers. Narratively this occurs because the target can trace the path of the arrow back to its source. Hit or missed in this context should be understood as the moment that it becomes certain that the target will be hit or missed, i.e. after the attack roll, but before the damage roll, if any (i.e. the same point at which a wizard would cast Shield).

EDIT: Incidentally, this is why an interpretation that has surprise ending when a target becomes aware of its attacker is unworkable. Because the target always becomes aware of an attacker at the moment of the attack, it would be impossible to hit a creature and for that creature to remain surprised. This is obviously not the intent.

 

[MG.0]

Good ruling. But let's imagine a situation where there are two guards. The first guard fails to notice the assassin, whilst the second guard catches a glimpse of the assassin just before he begins to move. Do you give advantage on initiative to the assassin? Disadvantage to the first guard but not the second? Something else? What if assassin gets advantage, but because he does he beats the second guard's initiative when he wouldn't have otherwise? What if he then makes the second guard his target in the first round? Oh the tangled webs we weave when first we practice giving advantage on initiative for surprise*. *You know, gotta hand it to that Will guy, rhyming these things out is harder than it looks.

Imposing disadvantage on initiative for surprised creatures seems like it might be reasonable, and less disruptive than giving advantage to the assassin's initiative.