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D&D 5E Atheism in DnD

Andor

First Post
The clerics of a slew of competing gods assert that their deities are actually gods and provide repeatable supernatural phenomena. Visit any trade city in on Oerth or the Realms and this is painfully obvious.

That's kind of a weakening of the divine arguement, don't you think? A village headsman goes to the Godstown section of Waterdeep to find someone to protect his villages crops the from the hail storms that have been wiping them out and hears: "Absolutely friend Thor will protect your village, he is the Lord of Storms and Thunder!" "Don't listen to that Charlatan! Zeus is the Lord of Lightning as all men know! Make obesience to him and you will be saved." "Liar! Talos is the god of Storms! He doesn't give a crap about you though, but I am his priest and can interceed for you if you can convince me of the worth of your cause. Tell me, how hot are your daughters?" "Swine! Unhand this rustic simpleton! The honorable and shiny Baphumet has power over all manner of atmospheric phenomenon within his blinged out talons!"
Does the villager have his faith in the gods reinforced by the scrum, do you think? Especially when a Druid or Wizard can also exert control over the weather and tried to underbid the clerics?

More to the point it illustrates what complete bollocks D&D theology is, having been written to be competatively polytheistic by people raised as monotheists.

Mlund said:
It's not "trust in intellectual authority," it's trust in repeatable phenomena - historical evidence.

Let me flip this one for you. How hard would it be for a group of non-divine magic users to pretend to be Clerics and falsely replicate all your "proof"? How many people can tell the difference between "Speak with Dead" and "Minor Illusion"? Can you tell the difference between divine healing and psionic?

mlund said:
Hence my original point: It is far more rational to posit a moral or philosophical stance that the "gods" are real entities that pretend at Divinity - limited / flawed / transient beings that don't deserve the title though they need / crave worship.
It has been raised many times throughout this thread that this is a stance that falls under the umbrella of atheism, although agnosticism may be closer. Although I feel I should point out that the idea that a being is not divine if it is flawed or limited is a very monotheistic one. In polytheistic religeons all the gods have flaws or limits. In many myths the gods can be tricked or deceived by canny mortals.
 

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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
Great topic of discussion :)
IRL Im a proud atheist, yet in my D&D Im very much a deist, (its the mythology aspect).

I run almost exclusively in the Realms. In my current campaign Ive been going for an atheist/agnostic tone. My campaign is set in 1373, about 20 years after the Godswar. People are pretty much disillusioned with the gods/religion; some have seen their churches become corrupt, while others have lost all faith in a god that could be thrown off heaven and made to squable on the material plane. One of my players is playing a Kelemvorite who has lost her faith, and has been cast out of the church. So as a DM I think it makes for great storytelling to deal with this internal/philosophical struggles. In my campaign the gods are real, but many of them are real as* holes. The gods are on a PR campaign because they realized during the Godswar that their power is tied to their worshippers; treat them like sh*t and they'll abandon you. AO, the overgod, probably has a special place for those who have lost their faith, and while the gods may not know what happens to these 'atheists', AO probably does.

Well, all FR gods are mean bullies, even the "good" ones.
 

Mephista

Adventurer
I'm working on a pantheon for my new campaign and one of my players asked if a deity is mandatory and could he be atheist. He's Christian IRL so it's an interesting response.

Do you think its possible to be an professed atheist in a setting where there are clerics running around? You don't reject the gods and you're not sitting on the fence - you outright don't believe they exist despite hard evidence to the contrary.
First question - does he want a character that denies the gods exist, or does he want a character that admits that the Powers That Be do exist, but just doesn't feel the need to worship them, or that they're unworthy of worship? The idea that the so-called "gods" are actually faith-parasites that feed off mortals isn't exactly unheard of in the D&D worlds.

That said, its not really that interesting from the point of a Christian. Its actually pretty common for any number of Christian players to not want to worry about a game where you worship fictional dieties. This and that are separate issues.

Really, the more germain question is "What does your setting say happens?" because the answer varies depending on where the game takes place. In Faerun, atheists get shoved into the Wall of the Faithless, where your soul was disolved and eventually wiped out after going mad. In Nentir Vale, the gods generally had little control over souls when people died, and could only collect the truly devout - no one knew where the souls went, not even the Raven Queen. In Planescape, your soul gravitated to the plane of your spiritual alignment, irregardless of what god you served - Lawful Good people that didn't serve gods still ended up on Mount Celestia, for instance.

So... what's your setting, and how do you want it to play out?
 
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Mephista

Adventurer
That's kind of a weakening of the divine arguement, don't you think? A village headsman goes to the Godstown section of Waterdeep to find someone to protect his villages crops the from the hail storms that have been wiping them out and hears: "Absolutely friend Thor will protect your village, he is the Lord of Storms and Thunder!" "Don't listen to that Charlatan! Zeus is the Lord of Lightning as all men know! Make obesience to him and you will be saved." "Liar! Talos is the god of Storms! He doesn't give a crap about you though, but I am his priest and can interceed for you if you can convince me of the worth of your cause. Tell me, how hot are your daughters?" "Swine! Unhand this rustic simpleton! The honorable and shiny Baphumet has power over all manner of atmospheric phenomenon within his blinged out talons!"
That's only a problem if you assume that there's only one God, or even one pantheon. D&D isn't monotheistic, so there's absolutely no qualms with having several gods of lightning and thunder all meeting up and chatting.

I mean, hells. Even in Roman mythology, we see lots of overlap. There are no fewer than four gods of grapes harvests and wine, maybe more, and that's in a single pantheon! And it doesn't touch on gods of harvests in general.

As for these gods being from separate pantheons? Aphrodite / Venus is very likely an imported god from the known as Ishtar/Inanna from the Babylonian mythology. There's nothing stopping gods from different pantheons from mixing and meeting and exchanging and growing and expanding in real life, let alone a fantasy world.

Gods freely mingle and mix. Why should any of this weaken a "divine argument" when its clear it works just fine in reality?
 

mlund

First Post
Whether one can find this information is setting (perhaps even campaign) dependent, so we cannot generalize.

"Settings can be different," is a tautology. A setting might not have elves or monks, but we still can (and do) generalize about those races and classes because they exist by default in the Core setting. Customization is a moot point.

I mean, who says extra-planar entities are actually answering such questions - typically, when they are summoned, they are here for business, not theological chitchat.

It's not a question of advanced theology. It's merely a question of, "Does Melora / Tyr / Bane exist and are assertions to the contrary reasonable?" Arguing the nature of these so-called "gods" is a completely different kettle of fish from the absolutist assertion that they simply don't exist.

Even in a "typical" D&D game, independent verification is actually not all that common. Wizards who choose to seek out *actually* where souls go, and return to tell the tale? Few and far between. Even the wizards are generally just accepting the word of clerics and those who have gone before them. The bulk of people, even adventurers, don't ever discuss such matters with folks who have been off plane.

As with most things, people accept the greater body of testimony of those who've gained verification themselves - unless they have another rational cause to call that into question. In the question of the existence of, say, Melora and Asmodeus, no one has a rational basis to contradict the clerics' assertion that they exist. There exist (and have existed for thousands of years) third parties with the power to fact-check the existence of gods and the disposition of souls. Despite the means, no one's built the case for the contrary position.

And even with all that - in a world where even among humans there are huge disparities of power, why should a mortal consider yet one more very powerful being as a "god" that should be worshipped? As noted before, there's more than one type of atheism - the typical D&D world is probably ripe for apatheism. "Yeah, these things may exist. I fail to see why I care. There would be wars and disease and death with or without them. Pretty darned pointless. Now, excuse me, but I have a cow to milk."

That's a separate debate over the nature of these so-called "gods" that do exist. People can call it "pragmatic atheism," (to act under the assumption of atheism in practice) but asserting that's "a kind of atheism" is just a semantic game. Furthermore the "no one can know and it wouldn't be worth knowing," agnostic premise from apatheism simply doesn't hold up in the setting. There's a huge distinction between "I don't care about the existence of Tempus" / "Tempus exists but is unworthy" and the position that "Tempus doesn't / may not exist." Irreligion ("I care not of the gods") and atheism ("Gods don't exist") are not the same.

It's perfectly tenable (if perhaps impractical due to afterlife concerns) to take an irreligious position in the Forgotten Realms. It's pretty much insane for anyone but the most ignorant to assert proper atheism, or even agnosticism.

That's kind of a weakening of the divine arguement, don't you think? A village headsman goes to the Godstown section of Waterdeep ...

The point you've missed is that these competing clerics don't deny the existence of their rivals in the pantheon. The question of "which god is best" or "are any of these gods worth worshiping" is completely beside the point of "do these gods even exist?" I've noted, exhaustively now, that rejecting the qualifications of these "gods" (irreligion) is a vastly more reasonable position for an inhabitant of Oerth or Faerun than the bald assertion that such beings are simply make-believe (pure atheism) and all the clerics and wizards are just in on the conspiracy (delusional psychosis).
 

That's backwards. There's a barrier of credibility that skepticism needs to overcome in this case. It is not uncommon knowledge in the base D&D setting that A.) "magic" is real and B.) divine and arcane casters claim their powers are distinct. The clerics of a slew of competing gods assert that their deities are actually gods and provide repeatable supernatural phenomena. Visit any trade city in on Oerth or the Realms and this is painfully obvious. On the other hand, the counter-claim lacks evidence and most attempts to disprove divinity can or have been systematically debunked. One would require a remarkably heavy emotional ax to grind to embrace the denialist position in such a case.



It's not "trust in intellectual authority," it's trust in repeatable phenomena - historical evidence. Attempts to undermine the credibility of witnesses is a time-honored tradition, but in such a setting you're basically alleging a truly grand and sweeping conspiracy to falsify evidence that transcends all animosity between cultures, religions, races, governments, and time-periods and has somehow wiped out all evidence of any cynic or skeptic who could employ the same known means to provide contrary evidence or prove a logical contradiction.



We can't have it both ways with the ignorance of peasants. If we take the realistic medieval example, the overwhelming population are illiterate peons (not even burghers) and have the same cause to question most physical places and historical figures that were part of their physical reality. They also historically heeded the more learned religious authority of their time and regarded those asserting contrary views as deluded or wicked. But then there's the obvious fantasy element in D&D. Even the lowly villagers and manor serfs, outside of an ultra-low-magic setting, believe in divine and arcane magics. With all evidence in the affirmative and no evidence to the contrary, they have no rational basis for disbelief in what the religious authorities tell them about the existence of gods. The religious authorities can perform actual magic. The only explanation would be charlatanism, and with outside collaboration the only explanation there would be conspiracy or mass delusion on the part of so many others. They are essentially asserting that "everyone else is out to trick me," or "I'm the only sane man," without any basis in evidence. There we've pretty much got paranoid delusion in a nutshell.

If I tell the peasantry, "There are no gods. Pay no attention to the clerics over there casting spells. It's all fakery," without anything to back it up but cynicism then they are, almost uniformly, going to regard me as a lunatic - and rightly so, considering the merit of my argument.

However, if you get to a level far enough removed from peasantry to be worldly (as adventurers almost invariably are/become unless they stay stuck in a "hopeless farmboy" or "ignorant barbarian" trope for the rest of their lives), you could entertain more complicated arguments. The only problem is then you'd also be at a level to be more closely exposed to the means at which such theories can be easily tested and disproven. Heck, by mid-tier adventurers can see for themselves and conduct their own experiments.

Pure disbelief in the disposition of souls and the reality of deities in the Core D&D setting is requires a level of ignorance beneath that of a civilized peasant or some sort of delusion. Setting changes can obviously shift that, but they typically require playing around with what magic can do in the setting with regards to extra-planar travel and communication. Hence my original point: It is far more rational to posit a moral or philosophical stance that the "gods" are real entities that pretend at Divinity - limited / flawed / transient beings that don't deserve the title though they need / crave worship.

I understand what you say. But what I'm trying to aim at is that all those are displays of supernatural power -which is abundant in most D&D settings, and abundant in the rules themselves-; whether or not said power has a divine origin is the question. And even though people asking that question will very likely be in the minority, there's enough room for doubt there without falling into delusion.
 

As with most things, people accept the greater body of testimony of those who've gained verification themselves - unless they have another rational cause to call that into question. In the question of the existence of, say, Melora and Asmodeus, no one has a rational basis to contradict the clerics' assertion that they exist. There exist (and have existed for thousands of years) third parties with the power to fact-check the existence of gods and the disposition of souls. Despite the means, no one's built the case for the contrary position.

Reminds me of the Queen of England. :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQJJjcrwXQE
 

Arial Black

Adventurer
At some point it becomes nothing more than semantics.

In worlds where archdemons, archdevils, Tyr, Thor, Zeus, The Raven Queen, Bahamut, Moradin, Vishnu, Horos, and/or The Flying Spaghetti Monster actually exist, whether you call them 'gods' has absolutely zero impact on what they are.

'Not believing they exist' is absurd, because their existence is verifiable.

'Not believing they are "gods"' is irrelevant; your belief won't change any of them. Even 'faith parasites' remain faith parasites and your unbelief won't change that fact, just reduce how much 'juice' they have.

This reminds me about arguments whether a particular individual creature is a different 'species'. The creature doesn't care what you think it is! It is what it is!

Q: If you call the tail a 'leg', how many legs does a sheep have?
A: Four! It doesn't matter what you call it, the tail is not a leg!
 

prosfilaes

Adventurer
That's backwards. There's a barrier of credibility that skepticism needs to overcome in this case.

For what? People believe in a lot of things that aren't very credible.

in such a setting you're basically alleging a truly grand and sweeping conspiracy to falsify evidence that transcends all animosity between cultures, religions, races, governments, and time-periods

Ever heard of Tiamat? Romans didn't, nor did they know anything about her world. Again, you're acting like a 21st century person who can look up the results of careful post-Renaissance archeology on Wikipedia, not someone in Faerun who has never seen an elf and could plausibly claim they don't worship the Gods. Maybe someone in Waterdeep has met an elf cleric, but that's still far from all races, cultures and, for crying out loud, time-periods?!?

If I tell the peasantry, "There are no gods. Pay no attention to the clerics over there casting spells. It's all fakery," without anything to back it up but cynicism then they are, almost uniformly, going to regard me as a lunatic - and rightly so, considering the merit of my argument.

I seem to remember some stories about Moses pointing to guys who had just turned staffs into snakes and saying "it's all fakery". A wizard noble could probably make that argument; oh look, they can turn their staffs into snakes, I can summon larger snakes to eat them. It's called magic, peasants, it has nothing to do with the Gods. I'm actually inclined to believe that a number of wizards and sorcerers believe that, that clerical power is just sorcerer with the delusion that the power comes from the gods.

'Not believing they exist' is absurd, because their existence is verifiable.

There are a lot of absurd people in the real world, who disbelieve in verifiable things.

Q: If you call the tail a 'leg', how many legs does a sheep have?
A: Four! It doesn't matter what you call it, the tail is not a leg!

Q: If the Danish call Settlers of Catan a 'leg', is it subject to the taxes that a 'leg' has in Denmark?
A: Yes.

Q: If the German government considers Scientology not a religion, is it subject to restrictions that religions aren't?
A: Yes.

It turns that what we consider things matters.
 

mlund

First Post
Again, you're acting like a 21st century person who can look up the results of careful post-Renaissance archeology on Wikipedia, not someone in Faerun who has never seen an elf and could plausibly claim they don't worship the Gods. Maybe someone in Waterdeep has met an elf cleric, but that's still far from all races, cultures and, for crying out loud, time-periods?!?

We've already been over the ignorant, isolated peasantry argument. Isolated peasants don't create national cultures - they assimilate what radiates out from the greater population centers and higher classes. Waterdeep is, by definition, inhabited by burghers, merchants, and nobility. They aren't isolated. They are a major trade port, traversed and inhabited by hundreds if not thousands of elves and permanent temple structures of rival deities with clerics that cast magic and wizards, powerful merchants and nobles, and wizards that can verify (uniformly) that clerics are getting their powers from the divine sources. You could doubt the existence of some rumored, niche racial, or forgotten deity (it happens even in Faerun), but asserting that there are no gods ("Tymora, Torm, and Bane are just social constructs!") with the knowledge of a typical inhabitant of Waterdeep (let alone someone of a higher class) would be alleging an utterly massive conspiracy among all the spell-casters, merchants, and nobility of dozens of different races, religions, and national origins. That's paranoid psychosis right there. Tinfoil hats are to the left.

It's called magic, peasants, it has nothing to do with the Gods.

You can perform a short-term denialism con to get one over on the isolated and ignorant. Try it in Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, or Greyhawk and it won't work because you can and will be easily undermined.

I'm actually inclined to believe that a number of wizards and sorcerers believe that, that clerical power is just sorcerer with the delusion that the power comes from the gods.

I'm sure you are so inclined and would be happy to customize a setting where that's actually true, but it's divergent from the D&D Core setting we're addressing here and now.
 
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