D&D 5E Atheism in DnD

[Bacon Bits]

I would say that in most campaign settings, atheism would be regarded as irrational or uneducated at best, delusional or outright insane at worst.

The basic problem is that it's very easy to find someone who can contact and travel to other planes. Not because you can contact deities, but because of everything else you can contact. You can contact sentient, eternal, immortal elemental forces. Not just forces of earth, fire, water. Not just forces of positive and negative energy. But sentient, eternal, immortal forces of morality. This is a universe where you can contact a sentient entity of elemental good, or elemental truth. These forces are not deities, but they will -- if they are trustworthy, which is magically discernible -- confirm that deities are real deities. They get their power from their worshippers, judge them and look over them in the afterlife (which is trivially provable), and are granted dominion over a domain of reality. And every tool, artifact, magic item, or magic spell you can conceivably invent or find will -- again, if trustworthy, which is magically discernible -- agree that deities are real deities.

Thus, any theory of deities being mere demiurges will be demonstrably, provably false. D&D is a universe where the existence of deities is not only falsifiable, it is 100% verifiable. A character will be forced to find either literally everything in the universe is lying to you -- i.e., a delusional psychosis -- or would be forced to admit that deities must exist because every trustworthy source of information would agree that deities are deities. Because based on whatever definition that campaign setting uses for a deity, they actually are.

Asking someone to prove the existence of deities is like asking someone to prove the existence of exoplanets. It's not easy. It requires a lot of study. But it can definitely be done, and no civilization would exist that didn't not agree on that universal fact of existence in that universe.

In the D&D universe, only the ignorant and the insane are atheists.

 

[MoonSong]

There is basically no refuge in Materialist thought in D&D. The whole "I don't believe in Thor, Santa Claus, unicorns, Jesus, or the Tooth Fairy," kind of flippant dismissal just doesn't fly when you're caught between magical fireballs and a a 200 ton lizard that can fly and breath lightning. So the real question becomes "what is a god?" If sufficiently advanced aliens ("What does God need with a starship?"), up-jumped mortals, and primordial titans don't qualify then yeah, you could still find atheism viable - as well as a non-theistic religion or Deism etc.

However, disbelieving in one or more deities doesn't mean they (and their diabolicial / demonic counter-parts) can't use you as a chew-toy for the rest of eternity. You've got some serious concerns to address as a mortal if you have a framework for an eternal afterlife that revolves around your relationship to self-proclaimed gods and devils. If the souls of non-believers pass into the unknown, that's one thing. If the souls of non-believers get carried off to Tartarus then a self-interested and self-aware individual best find themselves a patron ... or a clever way to cheat death.

Whihc is kiinda mean if a very good person/humanoid finds their way to tartarus/oblivion because he/she was ignorant/too busy with good deeds to worship.

I would say that in most campaign settings, atheism would be regarded as irrational or uneducated at best, delusional or outright insane at worst.

The basic problem is that it's very easy to find someone who can contact and travel to other planes. Not because you can contact deities, but because of everything else you can contact. You can contact sentient, eternal, immortal elemental forces. Not just forces of earth, fire, water. Not just forces of positive and negative energy. But sentient, eternal, immortal forces of morality. This is a universe where you can contact a sentient entity of elemental good, or elemental truth. These forces are not deities, but they will -- if they are trustworthy, which is magically discernible -- confirm that deities are real deities. They get their power from their worshippers, judge them and look over them in the afterlife (which is trivially provable), and are granted dominion over a domain of reality. And every tool, artifact, magic item, or magic spell you can conceivably invent or find will -- again, if trustworthy, which is magically discernible -- agree that deities are real deities.

Thus, any theory of deities being mere demiurges will be demonstrably, provably false. D&D is a universe where the existence of deities is not only falsifiable, it is 100% verifiable. A character will be forced to find either literally everything in the universe is lying to you -- i.e., a delusional psychosis -- or would be forced to admit that deities must exist because every trustworthy source of information would agree that deities are deities. Because based on whatever definition that campaign setting uses for a deity, they actually are.

Asking someone to prove the existence of deities is like asking someone to prove the existence of exoplanets. It's not easy. It requires a lot of study. But it can definitely be done, and no civilization would exist that didn't not agree on that universal fact of existence in that universe.

In the D&D universe, only the ignorant and the insane are atheists.

I doubt the embodiment of cosmic good would think highly of the wall of the faithless...

 

[Salamandyr]

Is it actually atheism the player is after-by the traditional meaning? Or perhaps what he really wants is a character who knows that gods exist but doesn't recognize their moral authority over the mortal world?

 

[Umbran]

Is it actually atheism the player is after-by the traditional meaning?

Part of my point earlier is that there isn't just one traditional meaning.

Or perhaps what he really wants is a character who knows that gods exist but doesn't recognize their moral authority over the mortal world?

Also known as "practical atheism" or "apatheism" (the portmanteau of "apathetic atheism").

"In practical or pragmatic atheism, also known as apatheism, individuals live as if there are no gods and explain natural phenomena without reference to any deities. The existence of gods is not rejected, but may be designated unnecessary or useless; gods neither provide purpose to life, nor influence everyday life, according to this view."

 

[Umbran]

However, disbelieving in one or more deities doesn't mean they (and their diabolicial / demonic counter-parts) can't use you as a chew-toy for the rest of eternity. You've got some serious concerns to address as a mortal if you have a framework for an eternal afterlife that revolves around your relationship to self-proclaimed gods and devils. If the souls of non-believers pass into the unknown, that's one thing. If the souls of non-believers get carried off to Tartarus then a self-interested and self-aware individual best find themselves a patron ... or a clever way to cheat death.

Well, how do we know what happens to souls? Clerics tell us? If I don't believe in gods, why am I trusting what the clerics say about souls?

As players, we have read the setting book that tells us the metaphysics. The characters in the world haven't.

 

[mlund]

Well, how do we know what happens to souls? Clerics tell us? If I don't believe in gods, why am I trusting what the clerics say about souls?

As Bacon Bits noted above, you basically have scientific proof available from impartial third-parties via magic-users. I mean, you can disbelieve in the veracity of reports from wizards and extra-planar entities as well as clerics if you want to, but at some point it crosses the line into a delusional psychosis.

Marty Lund

 

[prosfilaes]

The basic problem is that it's very easy to find someone who can contact and travel to other planes.

Maybe in the Forgotten Realms, but Dragonlance has a tiny number of people who can contact and travel to other planes. It's hard to tell, since they're games first and alternate universes second, but on most worlds I think the average farmer could be two hundred miles from the nearest person who has been to another plane. And in real life, I've talked to a man who saw Buddhist monks levitate, and I file that away as "unexplained, but probably false". Sure, the noble says that his court wizard has been to a plane of fire where all those evil people who start rebellions burn, but it's not exactly insane to dismiss that as propaganda, as many people have done real life examples.

It's probably like the real medieval times, which seems to have had a number of atheists, even if they generally didn't run around proclaiming it.

Thus, any theory of deities being mere demiurges will be demonstrably, provably false.

The Demiurge as known in Gnostic thought is distinctly more powerful then most D&D gods; I do not recall any D&D god stopping the spinning of the planet so their tribe could win a battle, or the Demiurge getting thrown down to the planet in corporeal form, like in the Time of Troubles. The Faerun gods, in some sense, seem more like angels or saints or really powerful mortals than real gods, the way they're subordinate to Ao and keep dying.

 

[Cristian Andreu]

As Bacon Bits noted above, you basically have scientific proof available from impartial third-parties via magic-users. I mean, you can disbelieve in the veracity of reports from wizards and extra-planar entities as well as clerics if you want to, but at some point it crosses the line into a delusional psychosis.

Marty Lund

I think you are overstating the availability of such sources of information in a typical D&D world. Maybe in a place like Sharn, Waterdeep, or Mount Nevermind a regular person might have a chance of brushing up with people with the understanding, reputation, and inclination to share their observations regarding the actual existence of the gods, but those are special places for a reason, and hardly the context most people live in within the Material Plane. Also, it doubt the usual 0-lvl peasant has enough of an education or at least breadth of perspective to even understand an argument of that kind. It might be ignorant -if reasonably so- to disbelieve the gods when they are empirically demonstrable -through extremely rare and nigh-unaffordable means-, but that's very different from psychosis.

And even then, the Athar, which arguably live in the city most exposed to factual information regarding the gods, make a point of refusing to believe there's anything divine about them, only lots and lots of power.

So while there's certainly a strong case to be made against the common occurrence of atheism in a typical D&D world, I could see it happening with a reasonable explanation (horrible fate notwithstanding).

In 20 years of DMing, though, only once I've had a player explicitly ask to play an atheist character (he wanted to use the philosophical/academical domain options presented in, if memory serves, the 3e Gods and Demigods supplement).

 

[Saeviomagy]

As Bacon Bits noted above, you basically have scientific proof available from impartial third-parties via magic-users. I mean, you can disbelieve in the veracity of reports from wizards and extra-planar entities as well as clerics if you want to, but at some point it crosses the line into a delusional psychosis.

There's no scientific proof there. It's hearsay. It's all literally "going to someone or something and asking them". As far as I know, there isn't a spell in D&D that actually tells the absolute truth.

 

[Dkase]

In a world where the gods actually do grant tangible miracles every day, it would be very difficult to persuade people that these were not gods but there is a singular God...but he doesn't grant miracles...

If you were 'people', would you be convinced?
...

I could definitely be swayed into believing someone's faith, even if it is a radical one, if I feel that the current one hasn't done enough, has outright abandoned me, or if the new faith appeals to me on a personal level. Even in places with active clerics of involved deities, things like natural disasters, plague and famine still occur, and in the wake of such calamities people wonder why their patron could have let it happen, and in those times a new faith that promises relief will seem VERY appealing.

I see that the Dragon Lance setting is brought up quite often, and it's interesting to note that in the Age of Despair (the time the three main novels take place), most people believed that the gods had abandoned the them after the Cataclysm shattered the world, and cults did appear in that time to offer answers to people that needed something to believe in.