D&D 5E (2014) Atheism in DnD

[Umbran]

Do you think its possible to be an professed atheist in a setting where there are clerics running around? You don't reject the gods and you're not sitting on the fence - you outright don't believe they exist despite hard evidence to the contrary.

Well, it is important to define what this atheism is. It can be far more nuanced than, "that being you call a god does not exist".

You can walk up to a guy wearing a military uniform, and you can say, "I don't believe you are *actually* in the military" or you can say, "I don't believe you exist." The former is a far easier sell than the latter. Questioning outright existence is harder than questioning status and classification - you can see a powerful being, admit it physically exists, but deny its deific status.

Many modern Hindus follow just this idea - the beings of mythology exist, but they are just more beings, not "gods", often more flawed than humans, rather than objects of worship.

Also, note that many people say, "well, in D&D worlds there is *proof* of the gods!" I question that. People walking around casting spells is not proof the gods exist. It is proof that there is some source of power, but the "god" may be a human idea around which people frame use of the power. In a pseudo-Medieval world, unless the gods have personally and physically manifested within living memory, their existence can be reasonably questioned.

If so, what does that mean when you die? Does the carpet get pulled out from under you and you get allocated to a plane anyway? Or do the gods get all petulant and send you to the hells?

You are the GM. You decide the metaphysics of your world. There are many possibilities.

It is entirely possible for the gods to exist, but to not be involved in "the afterlife" - there are common real-world examples of this. Maybe your afterlife is determined by your actions, no matter what the gods think. Or, maybe the gods are involved, and they shuffle you to punishment for your temerity. Or maybe those who don't believe go to a separate afterlife. Or maybe there is some god or power that doesn't take worship that handles such cases.

Perhaps more importantly, you may need to decide where the cleric's power comes from. Is it that a deific entity is not required to be a cleric - powerful will is all that's necessary, or maybe it is hereditary, and the religions scoop up all the endowed peoples? Is it that there is a spiritual entity aligned with the cleric's ideas that grants power to the character? Is there a trickster god that's having a big joke? In a world with gods, why does this character have power?

 

[MoonSong]

There are actual terms for this that get glossed over in our real world, but are very relevant to a fantasy polytheistic world:
Alatrism - belief that there are gods, but that worship is either undeserved or goes unheeded. Conan the Barbarian could have been described as Alatristic - he almost never prayed to Crom because he believed Crom existed but never heeded his people's prayers.
Dystheism - the belief that the gods exist, but are either not wholly good or possibly evil.
Maltheism - certainty that the gods are outright evil.

Any of these would be appropriate. Even if the gods existed, if you believed their actions not worthy of worship, you might behave in a manner described as atheistic, even if you had evidence that beings who called themselves deities existed and took action in the world.

There's also Misotheism, contempt for the gods. I had a Pc like that, a sorcerous paladin. My character had seen the worst of the world and held nothing but disdain of the gods, they were doing nothing for the people and thus deserved no worship.

 

[Sacrosanct]

It's entirely reasonable that in spite of the overwhelming amount of evidence one is exposed to, one could still not believe

 

[Cristian Andreu]

In a typical D&D cosmology, souls typically go to the appropriate ALIGNMENT plane, so those who think Clerics are deluded magic users would still go to wherever they belong.

In Planescape (though not necessarily in all of D&D), atheists get only oblivion, though it is specified that this is reserved for people who had absolutely no hint of belief in not just gods, but on there being any sort of afterlife. So no matter how good or evil a person is, if he doesn't believe in anything after death, he won't show up in any plane, alignment notwithstanding.

On Hallowed Ground mentioned that this wasn't a punishment, but instead the result of there being no god powerful enough to hold together the spirit of someone who had no trace of belief and making him into a petitioner. However, I distinctly remember the words "hardly a power", implying that there's still room for something having said capacity/inclination.

I also understand this refers to afterlife in general, with exceptions like the Wall of the Faithless in Toril still existing.

 

[Alzrius]

In Planescape (though not necessarily in all of D&D), atheists get only oblivion, though it is specified that this is reserved for people who had absolutely no hint of belief in not just gods, but on there being any sort of afterlife.

This is from AD&D Second Edition, where it did apply to "all" of D&D per se, insofar as the multiversal setting's cosmology went. Though, as you mention, local conditions may override that (e.g. the Wall of the Faithless).

On Hallowed Ground mentioned that this wasn't a punishment, but instead the result of there being no god powerful enough to hold together the spirit of someone who had no trace of belief and making him into a petitioner.

This was expanded on in Guide to Hell, saying what really happened to those who died with no belief in anything.

 

[GSHamster]

An interesting counter-point to this discussion might be people who worship something which is obviously not a god. The main example here are demon cultists.

But it could also be things like a village who worship a nearby river spirit who is really a naiad. Under what circumstances would you allow someone from this village to become a cleric?

 

[Henry]

There's also Misotheism, contempt for the gods. I had a Pc like that, a sorcerous paladin. My character had seen the worst of the world and held nothing but disdain of the gods, they were doing nothing for the people and thus deserved no worship.

In a 4e D&D campaign, I played a Dwarf Avenger of Moradin who was a Misotheist. His backstory was that his entire family was slaughtered by orcs, and Moradin gave him great powers to turn back the evil infecting his land. However, he never forgave Moradin for not saving his family, so as he crusaded he constantly uttered profanities at Moradin, especially when he missed (which he rarely did, because Avenger), and constantly yelling things like, "give me the strength to smite these cretins, NOW! YOU OWE ME!!!"

We didnt finish the campaign to see any resolution, but the DM was laughing his butt off.

 

[Andor]

It's also worth noting two things:

1) God is a fluid term. In animist beliefs, like Shinto, gods are everywhere, but not neccesarily worthy of devoted worship. Some you pray to always, some you pray to as needed, some you cajole or threaten, most you ignore.

2) The split between God and Mortals need not be as black/white as it is in modern monothestic religeons. In many world myths the Gods arise from some primordial force, which later gives birth to men. The difference between gods and men is one of degree, not kind. Men can even be deified for great deeds, something of a staple of D&D.

 

[Wik]

In a 4e D&D campaign, I played a Dwarf Avenger of Moradin who was a Misotheist. His backstory was that his entire family was slaughtered by orcs, and Moradin gave him great powers to turn back the evil infecting his land. However, he never forgave Moradin for not saving his family, so as he crusaded he constantly uttered profanities at Moradin, especially when he missed (which he rarely did, because Avenger), and constantly yelling things like, "give me the strength to smite these cretins, NOW! YOU OWE ME!!!"

We didnt finish the campaign to see any resolution, but the DM was laughing his butt off.

I did something similar with a paladin - he was "chosen" by his god to serve, and he didn't really WANT to. He wasn't exactly angry at his god or contemptous - just mostly exasperated. "Really? You summoned me for THIS!? THIS is my great destiny!? I just wanted to be left alone!"

He was fun, but maybe a bit whiny for a holy knight.

 

[mlund]

There is basically no refuge in Materialist thought in D&D. The whole "I don't believe in Thor, Santa Claus, unicorns, Jesus, or the Tooth Fairy," kind of flippant dismissal just doesn't fly when you're caught between magical fireballs and a a 200 ton lizard that can fly and breath lightning. So the real question becomes "what is a god?" If sufficiently advanced aliens ("What does God need with a starship?"), up-jumped mortals, and primordial titans don't qualify then yeah, you could still find atheism viable - as well as a non-theistic religion or Deism etc.

However, disbelieving in one or more deities doesn't mean they (and their diabolicial / demonic counter-parts) can't use you as a chew-toy for the rest of eternity. You've got some serious concerns to address as a mortal if you have a framework for an eternal afterlife that revolves around your relationship to self-proclaimed gods and devils. If the souls of non-believers pass into the unknown, that's one thing. If the souls of non-believers get carried off to Tartarus then a self-interested and self-aware individual best find themselves a patron ... or a clever way to cheat death.