D&D 5E CRs and what is going on?

[ExploderWizard]

You could bring back AD&D-style Magic Resistance. Balors had a 70% chance to flatly ignore any spell cast on them, or even to collapse an existing spell by entering its AoE, which is much better than 5E Magic Resistance.

Oh yes. 5E magic resistance is a joke in comparison.

 

[CapnZapp]

uhhh yeah it takes more than 4 level 7s, but i'm guessing 4 L9s would prob.pwn him.


Dude - PLAYERS can play smart too, just like DMs - and giving them lair stuff, tactical position, and allies adds to the CR so its not really germaine to a discussion re a monster's CR rating.

A lack of balance bothers me, and many other consumers of this game.... and yeah,there were far more balanced works - 3.5 and 4e had some problems but were MUCH better in THIS aspect - they had clear, reasonable CRs that MEANT something.


I don't need a spark, I need some stats I can reasonably rely on, so that I don't have to do EVERYTHING from scratch.

I really don't understand apologists lol
I say:This rule is unbalanced! Apologist response: Make your own rule up, you can, it says so in the book!
I say: This monsters stats are waaay off. Apologist response: Use it to spark your imagination!
I say: This module was boring. Apologist response: Make your own! You can, it says so in the book!

LOL I paid WOTC to make this game, they did sloppy work in this aspect of it, and I am calling them out for it - kapesh?
If I pay for dry cleaning and my shirt comes back with dirt on it, I'm gonna have something to say. I suppose our apologist here would say "Oh well, they inspired me to do my own cleaning. Yay!" Whatever. lol

Relax, Shoak, I've got the solution for you. It is really really simple:

Take a tippex pen and erase the CR.

Done!

Yes, that's all you need to do. Now you have a completely error-free set of statistics that are 100% guaranteed to work, since you will use your own evaluation to determine at which level the Balor is appropriate to throw against your player characters. Happy times!

(If you really want to, you can write the number CR 9 in the now-empty spot, but that's the advanced course... since that only applies to your campaign)

As long as you realize the CR/EL/whatevs system has been completely borked and FUBAR in each and every edition of D&D ever released, you're good to go.

You can all thank me later,
Zapp

 

[CapnZapp]

I just put together a quick example of permanent magic items found as a party levels up from 1-20 and discovers treasure hoards all rolled as per the DMG. I tend to assign items rather than roll when I DM so thought a comparison of what I give out to what is expected if rolling would be worth doing. I only rolled once so this is very anecdotal.

Levels 1-4 : bag of tricks (tan), javelin of lightning
Levels 5-10 : gloves of thievery, necklace of adaption, pearl of power, bag of tricks (rust), stone of good luck, ioun stone (protection), arrow catching shield
Levels 11-16 : deck of many things, cloak of arachnida, scimitar of speed, +3 weapon (Maul), armour of resistance (Psychic) (splint)
Levels 17-20 : robe of eyes, +2 weapon (shortsword), mace of smiting, ioun stone (sustenance)

So this party would not be able to take on a Balor easily until the 11-16 level range where they find their first magic weapons. I rolled these late in the sequence so maybe 15th level or so. The party gets no plussed magic armour at all for their entire career. If somebody wants to wear the magic splint mail they will probably be sacrificing a point of AC.

This has reminded me that rolling items can give out some very interesting stuff rather than always giving the player something a bit more combat useful

Yeah, well, for me that would mean a dreadfully boring campaign.

But this isn't a problem since CRs don't exist in my world!

 

[shoak1]

nothing matters

Awesome Zap - you went straight to the core apologist argument. Nothing matters. Everything and nothing's ok, cuz we can just ignore/take what we want from the game.

Here's a thought Zap - if CRs dont exist in your world, why are you trolling a forum on CR ratings?

 

[CapnZapp]

I don't like the idea of making really big creatures harder to hit by simple metagame reasons such as challenge rating. Harder to damage, perhaps yes. A creature such as balor is huge, and easy to hit, but ancient and powerful. No Joe Schmoe with a +1 sword should be just hacking it to pieces. That makes it not very scary at all.

First off, AC isn't meant to be a crucial factor in this edition. After all, nobody likes to miss all the time.

Instead of AC or any other ability, hit points is what differentiates the big boys from junior league. Ideally, a monster should have enough HP to survive enough rounds to deal so much damage that a party of "too-low" level simply can't weather that onslaught.

If you hand out +1 weapons to Joe Schmoes, that's your problem.

Then you should probably start out by doubling the Balor's hp, since you just effectively halved it for Mr Schmoe and his friends (roughly speaking).

The idea behind the Balor's relatively modest hp pool is to not prolong fights needlessly. Once you are of sufficient level to possess a magic weapon, its HP can't be too large or the fight will break the ideal of the 3 round combat.

For a balor, I would give it DR 15/ legendary (7th). This means that this bad boy has DR 15 vs. any weapon that is not legendary in rarity or magic below the 7th level in power. Thus most normal hits from standard magic weapons will be greatly reduced in effect, as will lesser magics. A 7th level party would not want to tangle with that balor unless they were overloaded with legendary weapons.

There are already four tiers in the game, why not use them? And I would not add the uglyness that was 3E-style resistances: they were hugely unpopular for a reason.

I suggest:

Any time you damage a creature from a higher tier than yourself, it gains a special resistance, halving your damage in addition to all other effects. Any hit originating from a creature two or more tiers below the creature's is ignored entirely (full immunity).​

A very fast and simple (and thus, 5E-friendly) suggestion that solves most of the thread's complaints, including the way numbers can replace levels in this edition.

 

[Prism]

Yeah, well, for me that would mean a dreadfully boring campaign.

But this isn't a problem since CRs don't exist in my world!

Yeah, I should have said 'sometimes' rolling for items. I give out tailored items too although its exactly this that the CR system ignores - which is why we both ignore it I guess

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, well, for me that would mean a dreadfully boring campaign.

But this isn't a problem since CRs don't exist in my world!

Why boring? I can see it being frustrating, perhaps, but, why boring?

 

[Celtavian]

First off, AC isn't meant to be a crucial factor in this edition. After all, nobody likes to miss all the time.

Instead of AC or any other ability, hit points is what differentiates the big boys from junior league. Ideally, a monster should have enough HP to survive enough rounds to deal so much damage that a party of "too-low" level simply can't weather that onslaught.

If you hand out +1 weapons to Joe Schmoes, that's your problem.

Then you should probably start out by doubling the Balor's hp, since you just effectively halved it for Mr Schmoe and his friends (roughly speaking).

The idea behind the Balor's relatively modest hp pool is to not prolong fights needlessly. Once you are of sufficient level to possess a magic weapon, its HP can't be too large or the fight will break the ideal of the 3 round combat.


There are already four tiers in the game, why not use them? And I would not add the uglyness that was 3E-style resistances: they were hugely unpopular for a reason.

I suggest:

Any time you damage a creature from a higher tier than yourself, it gains a special resistance, halving your damage in addition to all other effects. Any hit originating from a creature two or more tiers below the creature's is ignored entirely (full immunity).​

A very fast and simple (and thus, 5E-friendly) suggestion that solves most of the thread's complaints, including the way numbers can replace levels in this edition.

The goal of every combat is 3 rounds or less? 18 seconds of game world time or less to kill anything?

 

[Hussar]

The goal of every combat is 3 rounds or less? 18 seconds of game world time or less to kill anything?

That's about right. And, very in keeping with other editions of D&D, excepting 4e. Combat rarely lasted much more than 4 rounds in any other edition.

 

[Hussar]

The spellcaster (Wizard) used magic missile. The cleric just healed and buffed.

I did make it so that the Balor dispelled there Protection from Evil in a 30ft radius. Which of course meant I could actually hit them.

I was doing good damage.

But I think Shidaku is right. I just need to give my creatures more actions per turn against such a large party.

Something I just noticed here. Why would the Balor need to dispel the protection from evil so he could hit them? Protection from Evil only affects one PC and it's concentration. And, it only inflicts disadvantage. Ok, so, I don't target that PC, but, instead, target the cleric. Why did he need to dispel anything?

But, looking at the example of the 19th level fighter, I wonder why these calculations are actually useful. That character has no ranged attacks. Why isn't the balor flying lazy circles 30 feet above him, hitting with the whip, pulling him in the air, hitting him with the sword and then dropping him. The balor in the example should take no damage at all. I guess if the fighter started readying attacks, but, then the balor just uses only the whip, doesn't bother pulling him and still wins.

If the fighter has a +1 bow, so what? He's a strength fighter (girdle of giant strength after all) so he's likely got a 14 or less Dex. He's a heavy armour fighter so he probably dump stated Dex. The fighter's now doing d8+1 damage on attacks. The Balor creams the fighter.

And this brings me back to encounter design 101. Why is the balor fighting in an empty chamber? Is it really that unreasonable to have, oh, i don't know, a 30 foot pit in the room where he tortures his victims? Poof, pull PC's into the pit and they're out of the fight for a round. Hey, how about a couple of big burning braziers? Tip it over, fill the area with smoke, causing the PC's disadvantage on attacks due to concealment, plus possible choking damage. Or, how about, just maybe, a ledge or two somewhere higher up that the balor can use to attack from? Hey, how about a big bubbling hot mud pit or a boiling hot spring? I mean, good grief, it's the lair of an extremely powerful being that's been hanging around in that area for quite a while

These aren't adding XP to the encounter, this is basic dungeon dressing.

But, yeah, in an empty chamber with a 10 foot ceiling? Sure, the demon's got a problem.

---Edit to add

See, I'm really having a tough time with the math here. We've got a 7th level paladin standing toe to toe with the balor - after all it's the paladin's critical hit that kills the balor. 7th level paladin had (10+6*6=46 HP plus, we'll be generous, 14 con =60 HP) The balor attacked the paladin. Presuming one hit with each weapon, that's 21+13+15+10=58 damage, plus the 10 the paladin did to himself with that critical hit, so 68 damage. The paladin died with his own attack and is now ground zero for the blast. No saving throw because he's unconcious, he takes 70 damage. He flat out dies. Never minding anything else, how did the paladin survive? Note, of the other 5 characters, 1 is casting magic missile, so, 15 damage per round, 1 is only healing so, no damage, and the other 3, presumably, are attacking.

How in the hell did they do 262 points of damage in 3 rounds? Actually, less because in the first fight, the balor gets away. Any of the fighter types, assuming Action Surge, dump 40 points of damage into themselves for the 4 hits. Again, how are they not killing themselves? Even assuming 20 points per hit, which is absolutely ridiculous for a 7th level party, they're still only running around with 40-60 HP each. That's presuming no one took aura damage as well. How did they attack, then get out of the aura without eating Opportunity attacks? Remember, one attack, given the damage they've done to themselves, is enough to drop the PC's. The fight only lasts like 3 rounds, it's not like a 7th level cleric is healing that much. He can only cast so many spells.

This just does not add up. To kill the balor, they need to hit it 9 times (again, assuming the 20/hit, which is WAY high for a 7th level party, it should be closer to 15 at the most), that means they've dealt 90 points of damage (well, less, you do have magic missile damage, so, let's say 70 damage) to themselves before the balor has done anything.

Of course, any time the balor rolls a crit, a PC drops flat out. 99 points of damage and no 7th level PC takes that.

I'm frankly baffled how a 7th level party could even really challenge this thing.