D&D 5E Assassinate

[Noctem]

Well on top of the Mearls quote above, conditions don't say when they end. Although Surprise itself isn't a condition per se, it follows that effects like these only last for the length of time they say they do. So for surprise, the effect of surprise is totally contained from the time the encounter starts until the end of the first turn. After which it no longer has any effect whatsoever, so surprise ends.

 

[Hriston]

Yup folks, it really is that simple.

 

[Arial Black]

That would be the tail wagging the dog.

If there was a magic beam that lasted for 10 rounds, and if anyone were hit by the beam it caused their eyes melt over the course of two rounds, then the end of that two rounds when your eyes have melted (the effect) has absolutely no impact on the duration of the beam (the cause).

A surprised creature, among other things, cannot act/react until the end of their first turn (the effect). This has no impact on how long a creature is surprised for (the cause).

If the only effect of 'being surprised' was that your first action/reaction was delayed, then the question 'how long does surprise last' would be moot. But we know that there are other effects of surprise, chief among which is the fact that the Assassinate ability lets any hit on a surprised creature auto-crit. There is no wording that ties this effect to the other effect (delaying your actions/reactions) nor any wording limiting the duration of the cause (surprise) to one of the effects.

Imagine that the eye-melting beam above had another effect: while the beam is active (10 rounds, remember?) anyone in range has disadvantage on Dex saves.

So, cause: beam lasting 10 rounds

effect 1: while beam exists, anyone in range has disadvantage to Dex saves
effect 2: if the beam hits, your eyes melt

Why would we thing that the beam stops when your eyes melt?

Yet this is the logic that is used to say that when a creature takes its turn, surprise ends.

 

[Athinar]

The Assassin has surprised it's victim but lost initiative, On the Assassin's initiative turn the assassin does not attack and stays hidden, No Attack means the victim is unaware of the assassin. The Assassin stays hidden for a minute or two and tries to surprise (Stealth/Perception) an wins the initiative and strikes

 

[Uller]

Surprise RAW is too powerful as it is. Keeping the surprised "condition" any longer than necessary just makes it worse.

RAW it is too easy for an attacker to get two full rounds of actions before a defender has any chance to act other than reactions. If you beat a surprised character in init, you can move up, attack, stay next to the creature for an entire round without getting hit back then attack again the next round. With 5e's combats lasting 2-3 rounds, that's just way too much especially since characters that are good at gaining surprise are also usually good at winning initiative.

Our solution has been to play it as follows:

A surprised character gains the surprised condition at the start of a combat.

Surprised characters cannot take reactions. Attacks against a surprised character are with advantage and surprised characters make dex saves with disadvantage.* On it's turn a suprised character cannot act. At the end of it's turn it is is no longer surprised but rather than it's turn ending it is moved to the bottom of the initiative order where it can act normally (so end of turn saves and such will happen then).

*this bit is so surprise isn't nerfed too much. We give advantage on attack rolls rather than a chance at two rounds of attacks.

The basic effect is that rather than not being able to act, the surprised creature is unable to take reactions and attacks against it have advantage until it's turn comes up in the initiative order. At that point it is aware enough to at least react.

The way I look at this is a surprised character becomes aware of some sort of threat on it's init. Until then it is pretty much defenseless. A particularly quick character (one that wins initiative) might be able to react reflexively but can't act until after the threat fully materializes. But in no case can you run up and beat on a surprised opponent with impunity for 2 rounds before he gets a chance to do much of anything.

Oh...and we re-roll init every round, so even if you win initiative on the first round, there is no guarantee you'll win it next round.

It's been working pretty well for us for quite some time. YMMV.

 

[Uller]

The Assassin has surprised it's victim but lost initiative, On the Assassin's initiative turn the assassin does not attack and stays hidden, No Attack means the victim is unaware of the assassin. The Assassin stays hidden for a minute or two and tries to surprise (Stealth/Perception) an wins the initiative and strikes

I'm assuming you mean in the scenario that no one else attacks either. In that case I would argue combat has not started yet. Combat starts the moment the Assassin has decided he's going to attack.

At our tables it goes like this:

DM: The orcs walk down the passage and get within striking distance.
Assassin: I attack the nearest one.
DM: Roll initiative.

If the Assassin player loses and then says: "I stay hidden and don't attack." I would just say "Too bad. You started to move and they noticed you. Next round. They attack." That sort of metagaming is right out the window in my book.

 

[Arial Black]

I'm assuming you mean in the scenario that no one else attacks either. In that case I would argue combat has not started yet. Combat starts the moment the Assassin has decided he's going to attack.

At our tables it goes like this:

DM: The orcs walk down the passage and get within striking distance.
Assassin: I attack the nearest one.
DM: Roll initiative.

If the Assassin player loses and then says: "I stay hidden and don't attack." I would just say "Too bad. You started to move and they noticed you. Next round. They attack." That sort of metagaming is right out the window in my book.

That sort of metagaming evolves if you misunderstand the surprise rules and rule that it ends when the target can react.

Run as I've outlined (surprised until unsurprised = don't notice a threat until they do), if the hidden assassin (and we know that he remains hidden since his Stealth rolls have beaten every Perception roll from the target) declares his attack, roll initiative. It doesn't matter if the target gets a higher initiative, since he remains surprised until he notices a threat. The assassin can attack, knowing that a hit will be an auto-crit; no metagaming needed.

In case you think that this gives too much advantage to assassins, remember that a hit will not only auto-crit (whether or not the assassin has higher or lower initiative), a hit will also mean that the target will 'notice a threat' alright! He will no longer be surprised on that basis, and a second attack on the same turn will not auto-crit.

It's fair on the assassin too, because if he misses but somehow remains undetected (Skulker feat) then the target remains surprised because he still has not noticed a threat, and still vulnerable to a possible auto-crit. If I were DM, I'd have a new Stealth/Perception contest for each attack, and as soon as the target wins he notices the threat and is no longer surprised from that point.

Again, no metagaming needed. When the rules make sense, no problems from metagaming or anything else. If you run it so that hidden people are noticed after a few seconds no matter if invisible/inaudible/scentless etc. (by ruling that creatures are no longer surprised because they have good reactions, even if they have nothing to react to!), then metagaming is only one of the problems that may arise.

The solution to this metagaming is not to arbitrarily rule that the target detects the assassin even when they haven't; the solution is to run surprise the way that makes sense.

 

[clearstream]

Can you quote where the book actually says that? If it did, this thread would've ended over 500 posts ago.

The book does actually say that. The only way ambiguity becomes introduced is when you decide that surprise is not synonymous with its effects. The reason the thread hasn't ended is due to posters wedded to versions that add words and commit the ludic fallacy of finishing the narrative without rolling the dice.

The feature in question grants two abilities, each with it's own timing.

One ability works until the target's first turn.

The other ability works while the target is surprised.

These are two different timings. If they were identical, they wouldn't be written in two different ways and it would save space to have one timing governing both abilities. The reason they have two different wordings is because they are two different timings.

That ignores the words "In addition" before the second ability. If you win initiative Assassinate gives advantage, and in addition if your target is surprised you auto-crit. The contrary view causes the words in addition to have no meaning. Which commits the legal fallacy of failing to concede meaning to words in rules. But even if they were independent effects, that wouldn't constitute a reason for surprise to extend beyond end of a combatant's first-turn. Because that would commit the logical fallacy of begging the question since it would include its conclusion directly in its premises.

Bottom line, the version of surprise you prefer adds words to RAW (about ending on noticing a threat). You have argued that adding those words is logical, and logically the burden of proof falls on the person making a claim to prove it. However, no proof has been offered beyond repeating a preconceived narrative demanding that surprise be not only caused but also maintained by not-noticing threats. Nothing in RAW points to that. In fact, RAW expressly calls out that checking the noticing or otherwise of threats occurs outside of turns and rounds.

 

[Hriston]

[MENTION=71699]vonklaude[/MENTION], not sure if you noticed, but Jeremy Crawford answered your tweet today. He said, "The intent is that a surprised creature stops being surprised at the end of its first turn in combat." Thanks for wording the question in such a way that the sage decided to make it official.

 

[clearstream]

So, cause: beam lasting 10 rounds

effect 1: while beam exists, anyone in range has disadvantage to Dex saves
effect 2: if the beam hits, your eyes melt

Why would we thing that the beam stops when your eyes melt?

Yet this is the logic that is used to say that when a creature takes its turn, surprise ends.

Wow! That argument pulls a couple of fast ones. It pretends to present an analogue of surprise while actually presenting something quite different. Let's dissect it.

You stipulate that "beam" lasts 10 rounds. That is not analogous to surprise. What would be analogous to surprise would be "beam lasts until your eyes melt".

You have made eye-melting conditional on "if the beam hits" but sneakily inserted that conditional inside the effect package rather than outside it! But the effects of surprise are not conditional once you are surprised. What you should have said outside the effect package is "cause: beam lasting 10 rounds, if it hits you" with no conditionals inside the package.

You also put two effects inside the effect package, but surprise doesn't have two effects. You should have included only effect 2. Effect 1 is a red-herring.

So the intuition pump you have created pumps exactly the wrong intuitions and amounts to rhetorical sleight of hand.