D&D 5E I just don't see why they even bothered with the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.

[Alzrius]

and if the Apple seed you intended to plant turns out as an orange tree, you can stamp your foot all you want, it won't grow apples.

Right, and we all know how often apple seeds turn into orange trees.

If i "pledge" 50€ for something to "fund" it and and receive the finished product for it, then i've simply pre-ordered.

No, you haven't. Calling it that doesn't make it that.

Where do you think this has to show up for the company under IFRS? Not where funds from investors would show, it's taxable income

I'm surprised to see you suddenly pivot to objective classifications, since so far your stance has been "it's this way if I say it's this way." But even if we presume that you're right, the fact that crowd-funding is taxed differently from investment funding doesn't somehow make Kickstarter into a retail platform. The fact remains that you can't use Kickstarter to place pre-orders.

 

[Mirtek]

Right, and we all know how often apple seeds turn into orange trees.

in the business world quite offen. Then comes the point you have to realize you erred grabing the seed

No, you haven't. Calling it that doesn't make it that.

As far as accounting laws are concerned I have. Calling it anything other won't fly neither with demanding nor avoiding the legal consequences

I'm surprised to see you suddenly pivot to objective classifications, since so far your stance has been "it's this way if I say it's this way."

no this was your stance that what they set out to do matters more than what actually happens there.

But even if we presume that you're right, the fact that crowd-funding is taxed differently from investment funding doesn't somehow make Kickstarter into a retail platform. The fact remains that you can't use Kickstarter to place pre-orders.

not just taxation, the whole accounting process shows what it really is as far as trade laws are concerned.

With all impacts in your rights as an Investor vs an ordinary customer

 

[Alzrius]

in the business world quite offen. Then comes the point you have to realize you erred grabing the seed

Which is a sure sign that you've overextended the metaphor, since it no longer applies anymore.

As far as accounting laws are concerned I have. Calling it anything other won't fly neither with demanding nor avoiding the legal consequences

No, you haven't. Kickstarter isn't a retail platform even if the companies that receive pledge money from it don't classify it as investment money; the way you know that is that Kickstarter cannot be used as a retail outlet, since they don't actually sell materials.

no this was your stance that what they set out to do matters more than what actually happens there.

You're the one who kept saying "if I think of it as a pre-order, it's a pre-order." Just because you seem to have abandoned that particular line of thought doesn't mean you didn't try sticking to that particular gun before you found out it couldn't shoot.

not just taxation, the whole accounting process shows what it really is as far as trade laws are concerned.

You haven't demonstrated that, though. All you've done is posit that the money is taxed as per income. That alone doesn't prove anything, except that crowd-funding is taxed differently from traditional investment funding. In other words, the whole accounting process shows that Kickstarter is not a retail outlet as far as trade laws are concerned.

With all impacts in your rights as an Investor vs an ordinary customer

Again, "crowd-funding works differently from traditional corporate investment" does not equal "Kickstarter is a retail outlet."

You're just saying "it's not X," and somehow jumping from that to "therefore it's Y."

 

[garnuk]

Kickstarter is not a retail outlet. They make retail outlets unneeded in the process of selling new ideas to customers. You never answered my question, and it's clear now you avoided it because it would show how absurd your position is.

 

[Mirtek]

Which is a sure sign that you've overextended the metaphor, since it no longer applies anymore.

Did you know that Viagra was intended to be a medication to help with blood preassure. Turned out the side effect sold so much better

Again, "crowd-funding works differently from traditional corporate investment" does not equal "Kickstarter is a retail outlet."

You're just saying "it's not X," and somehow jumping from that to "therefore it's Y."

Actually it does. Kickstarter can't invent new trade laws. There are set categories for businesses and business transaction and the business done by the companies using kickstarter is falling under selling goods and services. Kickstarter itself is a mediator that brings them and their customers together

You're not buying shares, you're not granting loans, you're paying money for speficied goods&services. IFRS, US-GAAP, etc. are quite clear what kind of transaction you're doing on kickstarter

No, you haven't. Kickstarter isn't a retail platform even if the companies that receive pledge money from it don't classify it as investment money; the way you know that is that Kickstarter cannot be used as a retail outlet, since they don't actually sell materials.

No, kickstarter is a mediator that brings retailers and customers together.

the whole accounting process shows that Kickstarter is not a retail outlet as far as trade laws are concerned.

No, it's treated exactly as retailing as far as all relevant accounting and taxation laws are concerned

 

[Alzrius]

Kickstarter is not a retail outlet. They make retail outlets unneeded in the process of selling new ideas to customers. You never answered my question, and it's clear now you avoided it because it would show how absurd your position is.

I'm going to take a leap and ask whom you're directing this towards, because you haven't specified any particular poster, and you seem to be arguing both sides of the issue.

 

[garnuk]

The original comment was that WotC using kickstarter would hurt retail outlets. Whether kickstarter is a retail outlet itself is irrelevant. I asked earlier what would happen to retail outlets if all new products were sold via kickstarter, and the question was ignored.

 

[Alzrius]

Actually it does.

In fact, it doesn't.

Kickstarter can't invent new trade laws.

It doesn't need to. Your error is in conflating the money that companies raise via Kickstarter with Kickstarter itself. If Kickstarter was a retail platform, they'd actually sell materials, instead of simply being a fundraising platform.

There are set categories for businesses and business transaction and the business done by the companies using kickstarter is falling under selling goods and services.

Again, you're confusing the money that a particular company raises via a Kickstarter with the nature of Kickstarter itself. The former deals with a particular company that uses it, whereas the latter is about the actual funding platform. The two are not identical.

Kickstarter itself is a mediator that brings them and their customers together

You actually seem to be getting it, here. Kickstarter unto itself doesn't sell anything, acting only as a "mediator" between companies and those who would fund their projects. That's different from a retail outlet, as a retailer will be selling the items on their own.

You're not buying shares, you're not granting loans, you're paying money for speficied goods&services. IFRS, US-GAAP, etc. are quite clear what kind of transaction you're doing on kickstarter

No, they're not. They're just classifying how the business that received the money is taxed on it. That's not particularly relevant to Kickstarter itself.

No, kickstarter is a mediator that brings retailers and customers together.

Which means it's not a retailer itself.

No, it's treated exactly as retailing as far as all relevant accounting and taxation laws are concerned

Except that that's a separate issue, since it deals with the companies that use Kickstarter rather than Kickstarter itself. That's another way you know that crowd-funding is not retail.

 

[Alzrius]

The original comment was that WotC using kickstarter would hurt retail outlets. Whether kickstarter is a retail outlet itself is irrelevant. I asked earlier what would happen to retail outlets if all new products were sold via kickstarter, and the question was ignored.

Yeah, but who were you asking? You seem to have someone specific in mind since your last post is made in the second person (e.g. you refer to "you").

For what it's worth, I think that hypotheticals aren't worth very much in a discussion, since they're typically posited to set up some ludicrous example that's extremely unlikely, which I'm guessing is why your question was ignored. That said, the question doesn't make much sense. What would happen to retail outlets if literally all new products were funded via Kickstarter? The answer is nothing, since after they were funded the books would still need to be sold to everyone who wasn't a backer (or was a backer that didn't get that reward). The retailers are still needed just as much as they are otherwise.

 

[garnuk]

You was refering to anybody who is arguing that kickstarter has no impact on retailers.