Creating a new pantheon

[delericho]

Joy, Sorrow, Anger, Fear, and Disgust.

Also, consider having the common wisdom of the people in the setting be wrong, or at least a simplification.

 

[steeldragons]

I'm torn between "Void" and "Spirit" as the 5th element. I may have to combine them. I really have a lot to think about.

That's what I would do. I don't see why not.why they aren't or can't be two elements of the same thing, varying faces/interpretations of the same "element."

The other thing is how this all relates to the dragons, and their "shattering". I'm thinking that that act is what has caused the beginning of the death of the world. Did the Gods break the dragons? Were the dragons immortal? Were they the first gods? Hmmm... or did they merely rival and threaten them? If the gods didn't break the dragons, who did? Was it with the approval of the gods? Or were the dragons the servants of the gods, and their breaking was taken as an assault on the gods?

Well, you'd have to better explain what you mean by 'shattering". From what I understand, there still dragons int he world, just significantly "lesser"? Sooo...like, if a villain got a bunch of lesser dragons together, is there a way for him to "fuse" the "shattered" dragon bits back together and create some massive "full/real dragon of the ancient world" that would be like having a nuclear weapon at their disposal (or so the villain would believe. The dragon, of course, would seek to dominate/enslave all lesser beings of the world, insist on worship and tributes,...maybe even restore itself to/threaten to assume godhood?)

I would suggest that...how each religion deals with the dragons/"The Shattering" [if I may], is different and that plays into how each would approach or view dragon-like creatures and the loss/destruction of the dragons. As with practically all myth/legend, there are seeds of truth in each view, but none of them (except perhaps the Air temples/highest cleric who would have access to practically unlimited knowledge from teh Celestial Queen) have the full/"real" story.

Without knowing more, it's difficult to say, but something like:

"Seeing the devastation of the dragons that was coming, the Celestial Queen sent those dragons, that were so dear to her, away, to hide amongst/behind[within?] the stars before the shattering destroyed them all. What dragons would, did fight...and fall as others of their kind did flee the world, awaiting their benevolent patroness' word to return. Silver and Gold dragons, in particular, are viewed as agents or symbols of [and hold a healthy reverence for, if they ever/still exist in the game] the Air goddess.

"The Earth King and Prince of Fire did make mighty war against the dread wyrms who sought to usurp the wealth of the earthly realms and rule the powers of the fiery sphere as their own. Indeed, the "Hundred Headed Lord" [of Dragons] sought to destroy the world with the sun, itself. So the Earth religion sees dragons as the avaricious and dangerous monstrous foes "they were."

"With his mighty holy hammer,<insert mythic weapon name here>, the King of Earth smashed the Lord of Dragons into the thousand multi-colored shards that became the remnants of draconic power and creatures within the world. True to their treacherous nature, these shards sank into the deeps of the world and the sea, hiding in the darkness to fester and regain their strength to harry the goodly peoples of the Earth deity.

"The Fire Prince used his great flaming broad sword, <insert name>, to further shatter and smash the shards of dragonkind that rained down upon the world. But, ever-clever and seeing the opportunity for power and the mighty creatures these shards might be, the Fire Prince did caught some shards as they fell. In his secret forges at <insert mythological place/godly fortress here>, he toiled and crafted, in his fashion, into his own shapes, that they might serve him and add to his power.

"So the religion/temple of the Fire Prince, moreso than any other factions, would be interested or willing to seek out/work with/attempt to use the shattered draconic creatures to their own aims. [Which, I suspect, probably entails claiming the divine Earth King's throne as his own?]

"The Water Princess, similarly, was more than happy to fight to protect her beloved world and the life and beauty that existed therein, from destruction of the Hundred-headed Lord. What shatterings fell within her water realms, she was able to help and heal and shape into forms that could, and in their gratitude continue to, do her bidding and so, she uses them in her ages old fight against the Fire Prince, ever ebbing and flowing but never able to completely quench his raging power-lust.

"As is to be expected, the Outsider [of Spirit/Void] did nothing to assist or hinder the Shattering. Merely observed. Nor did It aid or harm the shards that followed it. Some shards and the spirits of shards have come to It of their own accord. Seeking the secrets they might use to increase their power in the current world and/or restore themselves to their former glory. The Outsider has no particular interest in the dragons, seeing them, as all things [even immortals] eventually will be, coming to and falling under/to the inevitable [transition/death/etc...], that is It."

Obviously, the actual "truth", causes, and outcomes of any of these tales is something else entirely/somewhere in the middle.

This is what I've come up with so far:

Couple of things caught my eye...nothing that's a "problem" really, it is your world/pantheon and having little idiosyncrasies within the deities portfolios is a nice touch of "mortal-ness" or "falability" in their design/distribution of powers.

1. If Fire rules the area of "creation", should not the "creativity" [as emotion], and possibly inspiration, belong to fire instead of earth? Would be a good reason dwarves, in particular, but all smiths might revere the earth and fire deities together.

2. Just a personal preference, but I think "travel" is more appropriate to Air...in its traditional role as the "communication" element, traveling would seem to fall under it. But in a civilization that is reliant on sea-travel or using rivers to get quickly from one place to another, it makes sense where it is.

3. I'm not really getting/seeing the Rat as a symbolic animal of Spirit or Void. Not 100% on the Ankheg either, but at least it's a large monstrous (breath weapon, even) thing. Air with the eagles is just traditional/makes sense and is a "king of the air/winds" and flying creature that can have impressive size and, theoretically, could be seen as something that could fight a winged dragon in the skies. Water and Fire get actual draconic creatures.

So, I guess, first, why don't they each just have a dragon type of their own?

And second...why rat? I'm good with spider. Makes webs. Can form cocoons. Millions seem to come out of nowhere...and decidedly different than other animals and insects. I could even see the Worm as good for a spirit/void area. They're seemingly everywhere but no one ever knows for sure/you don't know they're there. They consume and transform the soil into different/"healthier" soil...I wouldn't so far as to say "life giving"...but "transformative" for sure. And then you can use giant/monstrous [perhaps Purple ] worms as their more draconic/divine form. Or for a bit more "in your face" symbology, a catepillar/larvae-like creature that metamorphoses [could be part of the yearly calendar?] and emerges as butterfly [or moth?]

But...yeah...not really following the rat imagery.

I do like the inclusion/choices for the related metals. And the rest all looks cool. Sounds like a cool place/setting for a game. Hope it's not that short a run.

 

[Demonspell]

And, heck, let's add Magic, the Gathering: White, Black, Green, Blue, Red make a fine set of five.

Even with MTG if you stuck to the elements still White=Wind, Black=Earth, Green=Wood, Blue=Water, Red=Fire.

 

[Celebrim]

I had forgotten Curse of Chalion had 5 gods! One of my all-time favorite novels. I like especially the role of the Bastard, outside the normal seasonal/familial pattern. An excellent patron for adventurers. If I go with Void as the 5th "element", I could definitely use the idea of the familial roles with the other four, and name the 5th as the outsider.

I'm torn between "Void" and "Spirit" as the 5th element. I may have to combine them. I really have a lot to think about.

I personally feel that "Void" is a much stronger choice, and far more in flavor for the "God of the Alienated" than spirit.

The problem with Spirit is that it is greater than all the others, so whatever god is the god of spirit, that god rules over the others. Depending on how dualistic the cosmology is, the god of spirit might in fact be the only necessary god. If you have the one god that is the god of spirit, then all the other gods are merely the gods of dead, motionless, and volitionless things and each needs the god of spirit to give motion, purpose, and law to it. So I'd much rather spirit be a concept shared equally among the elements, so that each god is the highest embodiment of the spirit of the thing that they represent, because 5 coequal gods to me is more interesting than a head god and 4 vassals.

The other thing is how this all relates to the dragons, and their "shattering". I'm thinking that that act is what has caused the beginning of the death of the world. Did the Gods break the dragons? Were the dragons immortal? Were they the first gods? Hmmm... or did they merely rival and threaten them? If the gods didn't break the dragons, who did? Was it with the approval of the gods? Or were the dragons the servants of the gods, and their breaking was taken as an assault on the gods?

The problem of evil is one of the central problems in any cosmology. In my opinion, the Chalion pantheon in its otherwise excellent conception starts breaking down when the author (among other things) tries to address the problem of evil.

To get evil in your cosmology, at some point, a flaw gets introduced. This might result from the hubris of young gods if your gods are less than omniscient. This might result from one god's jealousy of the others. This might result from the gods being begotten into a universe that was already flawed. This might result from the god's discovering themselves as flawed, and making the choice to reject the darker part of themselves. This might result from rebellion by offspring or created beings whom the gods love to much to destroy or are otherwise constrained to act against, or else who turn out to be so mighty that they can unexpectedly thwart and resist their creators.

 

[Umbran]

Even with MTG if you stuck to the elements still White=Wind, Black=Earth, Green=Wood, Blue=Water, Red=Fire.

I think calling White=wind and Black=Earth misses most of the representation of those colors in the game, so I don't think that's really a good analogy.

 

[Umbran]

The problem with Spirit is that it is greater than all the others

I think that's a very modern Western mindset and interpretation - I could go into some of the influences that make it seem to us like "Spirit" is greatest, but they'd verge on discussion of real world religion (which has a huge impact on our views of magic and spirituality).

A culture that hasn't bought into either people's mastery of, or the ultimate irrelevance of, the physical realm might have a much different view of the balance of things.

 

[Celebrim]

I think that's a very modern Western mindset and interpretation - I could go into some of the influences that make it seem to us like "Spirit" is greatest, but they'd verge on discussion of real world religion (which has a huge impact on our views of magic and spirituality).

Funny, as I was thinking in terms of very ancient and - if you are going to bounce off religion, rather antiquated - notions of how the world works. I can't think of much which is less describable as "modern Western". Leaving aside the fact that most widely practiced extant Western religions aren't really dualistic the way Greek philosophy was, the concept of spirit hasn't been really important to the modern understanding how the world works since Newton's philosophy won out over Leibniz.

But, imagine a mindset that has not shunned the importance of the physical in day-to-day life, because it hasn't bought into either people's mastery of, or the ultimate irrelevance of, the physical realm. A culture, for example, that still has to worry about whether there will be a fire in the hearth tomorrow, and whether the earth in the fields will be fertile, and whether the water will give you dysentery, might have a much different view of the balance of things.

I'm trying to imagine where you think you are going with that.

The mindset I'm describing believes that when they observe a cloud move or a wind below, it is because the nature of the spirit in the cloud or the wind to want to blow. Why does the fire burn and why does the fire not go out? The fire burns because it is the nature of the spirit of the fire to want to burn, and the fire does not go out because it is content to continue to burn because it does not scorn the hearth. Likewise, a field is fertile because that field has the spirit of fertility which has the will to bring forth fruits. If you wish to continue to have the field be fertile, then you need to appease the fertility spirit so that it doesn't scorn you or depart from you. You do you have dysentery? It's not because of polluted water, which implies some knowledge of germ theory. Rather, you have dysentery because an evil spirit has entered you and must be appeased or expelled. Perhaps an enemy has set a curse on your. Or perhaps some guardian spirit is offended by your actions, and so has allowed the evil spirit to gain access to your life. If you want to set things right, you do so by making that spirit have good will toward you.

Or as I put it in my campaign world when players start trying to use knowledge of real world science as if their characters had access to that knowledge, "Why do things fall? It's because the spirits of the earth pull them down."

In short, the animist viewpoint is that things happen, and things move, because they are alive. It projects a theory of mind into all action and sees that as the cause. Those flames aren't dancing around because of chaotic vortexes rising through a column of incandescent burning gases, but because they are happy.

But even if we are talking about say Platoism, then that gets us no where better in terms of making spirit a peer of matter, since Platoism would say something like that we know that a fire is a fire regardless of what shape it is, because it is a manifestation of the pure ideal form of fire which we glimpse from a higher plane. "Spirit" isn't merely an element like the rest, but the thing that either makes everything go by giving it life or from when everything else gets its template and definition.

 

[Demonspell]

I think calling White=wind and Black=Earth misses most of the representation of those colors in the game, so I don't think that's really a good analogy.

While, I agree, given that white is more focused on protection, and Black with death (or undeath/creature removal) I was actually trying to stick with the Op's request of keeping to elements.

Since the MTG colors aren't actually elements so much as they are representations on a theme more along the lines of protection, death, life, manipulation and impulse. It just made sense to relate them closer to an element. White does tend to have a large number of creatures with flight, and most of the air elementals are white as well; though a few do show up in blue also. Black was a bit of a stretch for earth, though there are several mines, and other earthy land types that product black so possibly.

 

[Umbran]

I can't think of much which is less describable as "modern Western".

As I already noted - this would be going into real world religion and its impact upon philosophy, which is not appropriate for this thread or forum. So, we'll have to let that go.

In short, the animist viewpoint is that things happen, and things move, because they are alive.

To be clear, I'm speaking from the position I took from the OP - where the elements are cosmological principles that have major deific representations - like in a D&D pantheon. This is very much not animism, which doesn't have five gods, but a multitude of "small gods".

In this view, you don't attach "spirit" to everything - that'd be double-counting it. The traditional four physical elements have their *own* motive forces (in D&D terms, elementals), and don't need other "spirits". "Spirit" then is attached to things that have some animus, but are not clearly one of the four elements - maybe people, or animals, maybe even plants. Maybe crafted items (in which two or more elements have been melded together - Earth + Fire = Sword, style, wherein the crafted object we may not be able to call dominion of one element or another).

 

[Celebrim]

As I already noted - this would be going into real world religion and its impact upon philosophy, which is not appropriate for this thread or forum. So, we'll have to let that go.

Ok... I have a sneaking suspicion that if I knew where you were going, that I wouldn't agree with it any way so that's probably for the best. I'm absolutely worn out on discussions of real world religion(s) and their impact on philosophy the past few days.

To be clear, I'm speaking from the position I took from the OP - where the elements are cosmological principles that have major deific representations - like in a D&D pantheon. This is very much not animism, which doesn't have five gods, but a multitude of "small gods".

I kinda got the impression you were neglecting the spirits themselves in your conception of what was made of spirit, but I still don't understand where you get from there. Greek myth is generally regarded as one of the more advanced polytheistic conceptions, and it certainly hasn't moved past an animist view of the universe. Greek myth generally has not only major deific lords of over a thing, but incarnated versions of the thing, and a host of representations of the specific instances of the thing each of which is subject to their lord. Thus, you can have not only Poseidon who is the deified King over the ocean and dwells beneath it, but Oceanus who is the spirit of the ocean whose physical form is literally the ocean, and a host of nymphs and naiads who are the small local gods that are the spirit of individual bodies of water, currents, and springs. And all of these beings are alive and have will and ability to move, because they have a spirit that animates them.

In this view, you don't attach "spirit" to everything - that'd be double-counting it. The traditional four physical elements have their *own* motive forces (in D&D terms, elementals), and don't need other "spirits".

In most D&D that pays attention to these things, elementals are spirits of fire or water or what have you. So this 'spirit' you have isn't the animus of the thing.

"Spirit" then is attached to things that have some animus, but are not clearly one of the four elements - maybe people, or animals, maybe even plants. Maybe crafted items (in which two or more elements have been melded together - Earth + Fire = Sword, style, wherein the crafted object we may not be able to call dominion of one element or another).

So you have a god of rocks, and then a god of all living things, all people, and all technology and you expect this to be as an equal distribution in the minds of the believers?

Even more so, this raises questions that if the body of a thing is made of "spirit", why does it need food and water as nourishment. And if the spirit is only a small portion of the thing, and its mostly dust and water with some air in it, what does the "spirit" part actually do?