Dragonborn in Faerun

[doctorbadwolf]

Maybe. Idk, they've been around for a couple generations at this point, though.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Maybe. Idk, they've been around for a couple generations at this point, though.

Yes, but now their homeland is gone again, and from what I've read the majority of them never travelled far from their (transplanted) homeland. It's a long way from Unther to the Sword Coast. Look at race relations in the real world. All of the various races have pretty much been around since the dawn of modern man, and interacting with each other for thousands of years now. Still not up to the same standard as the human/elven/dwarven/halfling dynamic that is the standard of most fantasy worlds.

It works from my perspective in the Forgotten Realms because the elves have settled Toril for over 20,000 years, and they came to Toril with their culture intact. Humans have only factored in for the last 5,000 years or so, but they grew in a world where the elven and dwarves civilizations were well established, and the elves helped build human civilization, along with the dwarves to a lesser extent. So the dynamics of these cultures are very different in the Forgotten Realms than our own. But that doesn't translate to accepting new races, particularly because at this stage many of the elves and dwarves aren't sure that helping the humans was that wise of an idea, and the humans wish to maintain their civilizations and dominance.

So a new race would take many, many generations, to establish themselves as generally accepted in society, and that would require large numbers to do so. Neither of which apply regarding dragonborn in the Forgotten Realms. Considering they are described as following their own rigidly defined culture, and worship no gods, there is little reason for the majority of them to leave their homeland. Those that do would be very rare, particularly the farther you go from Tymanther, and would likely have difficulty fitting in with society in the rest of the Realms. Their honorability would play well, and eventually, in localized regions, an individual would become accepted, but that doesn't always translate to trusting an entire race. All of which lead me to believe that they would primarily be viewed with suspicion. The vast majority of Realmsfolk would never have heard of Tymanther.

So, for a PC - you are treated with suspicion, you are isolated from your culture where honor, clan, and family are among the most important parts of your life, most likely speaking a language that is not understood here (oh, right, common is exactly the same on every world in the D&D multiverse), and you quickly learn that the society on the rest of the world does not place honor and clan as the most important parts of life, and they worship unseen extraplanar beings and practice magic frequently.

The only way you'd be in a generation that was born locally is that at the very least a pair of dragonborn had to leave their clan and family in their regimented society to settle in that uncomfortable location and start laying eggs. Of course, the second generation would somehow have to find different dragonborn to settle down with, requiring yet more to have made the journey from Tymanther, etc. Otherwise, you'd hail form Tymanther.

Sounds like a decent main character for a novel. As a PC, either the majority of the attention is centered on you, or you just ignore the ramifications of the race altogether, making it somewhat pointless.

Now that the majority of them have returned to Abeir, there's an even smaller group to spread throughout the world, and most of them are probably defending their new homeland against being reclaimed by Unther.

It's not all that different to trying to incorporate an Uthgardt barbarian into the campaign. Oh sure, a rare individual leaves everything they've ever known to associate with magic-using infidels in the civilized world. As an interesting character growth scenario it's very cool, but tough to maintain in a group of PCs. But everybody wants to play something 'different.'

Obviously, there are plenty of different directions a DM can choose to go in their own campaign with what little information is published. And I am fully admitting that I have a bias against them, and that I may be in the minority at this point. The problem for me is that it greatly changes the nature of my Realms, and try as I might, it's become quite difficult to say, 'no, that just didn't happen in my world.'

Yes, it's a danger of using a published world for my campaign. And I am in no way implying that others shouldn't do it differently. It's just my personal opinion about how dropping an entire alien race into an established world and calling them a 'standard' race (although I guess in 5th edition they are technically optional), has generated a good deal of difficulty for those of us who would have preferred it didn't happen.

Ilbranteloth

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I didn't read all of that, no offense.
Anyway, IIRC, from the 4e FR books, there are DB in most places. Some from Tymanther, some not.
And again, multiple generations.
Irl, we tend to think of things as normal that appeared in our grandparents' time.
And the reputation for honorable behavior and the like is specifically called out as well known.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

OK, read it all. I get where you're coming from, but I disagree with you fundamentally on most of your assumptions, so I doubt this will lead anywhere.

Aside from what I've already said, it's established in the Neverwinter Campaign Guide, if nowhere else, that there are Dragonborn on the Sword Coast. Personally, I think that the whole idea that most dragonborn have "returned" to their "home world" is complete nonsense, so I ignore it along with at least a dozen other things in the ridiculous "this is not a retcon" retcon they call the sundering. IMO, it's worse than the ToT or Spellplague, and only mostly because it's so thinly veiled in it's "people got butthurt about the 4e realms, so we're retconning them out of existence. Mostly.

Anyway, all that baggage aside, the dragonborn have been spread out accross Faerun as long as they've existed, in a meta sense. There may only be one DB nation, but there's no reason to assume that there aren't families and even villages with multiple families in and near most major metropolitan cities. They are a minority, fine. But there's nothing disruptive or weird about playing a minority. And the idea that most Faerunians would never have heard of Tymanther...what? FR isn't medieval europe, especially when it comes to info. That's one of the things bards do, is bring news, and that's just one way it travels. But even if it were in terms of info traveling, it still isn't in terms of literacy and people getting educations, so I just find the idea of even a plurality of people not knowing where DB come from to be...really odd.

That all being said, I'm not sure I even buy the assumption people make that a member of a monster race would be killed on sight, most places. In a small village, who is going to risk their lives to kill something that isn't attacking anyone? It would be beyond stupid. Especially if it looks as well armed and competent as an adventurer is likely to look, and especially if it has a handful of equally well armed and competent looking companions, who seem to think it's an alright sort of personage, and are likely to take offense to you trying to kill their friend. And by take offense, I mean kill you dead and sleep like the innocent that night, because from their perspective they were justified.
Seriously, what villagers or townsfolk or even city guards are going to do that? Attack one member of an adventuring company on sight, because they look reptilian and kinda scary?

So, we're left with distrust and varying degrees of xenophobia or acceptance, depending on where you are and how crappy your DM likes to play villagers.

But there are probably also fairly well known DB heroes that any given villager has heard stories about, also.

I think in most cities, they'd be treated like 3rd generation immigrants, at worst. At best, they'd be treated like everyone else because there are surface drow now, and there was an orc kingdom that traded with people, and Waterdeep has members of pretty much every race living within it's walls.

Of course, in my Realms, Many Arrows is still doing fine, Netheril has lost most of it's power but is still around and has abandoned the worship of Shar, having bigger fish to fry with using their magic to build new oasis enclaves and normalize relations with it's neighbors, Myth Drannor wasn't re-destroyed, there are still big chasms leading into the Underdark, none of the old heroes have been shot through time or whatever the hell, etc.
At this point, anything that comes out for FR, even if it comes from Elminst- I mean Greenwood, is a suggestion. Once you retcon, no matter how much you insist it isn't one, you have no canon, IMO.
I'd have accepted a reboot to "day one" or one where Greenwood remakes the realms into what he runs at home or something more easily than a totallynotaretconbutreallyit'saretcon.

 

[KahlessNestor]

Pretty sure Tymanther didn't go back to Abeir, Unther just 'returned'. Made a bit of a mess and started a war, but all those dragonborn are still there. Returned Abeir is probably a different story.

 

[gyor]

They're homeland isn't completely gone.

Spoilers

The God Enlil saved a region around the capital and the return of Unther was a Chaotic event so other parts of Tymanther might have survive. We won't know until Erin M. Evans writes her next book. Also as odd as this sounds different Dragonborn might have returned WITH Unther, slaves and servants of Unther possibly.

 

[gyor]

I think alot of Dragonborn on the Sword Coast actual come from Returned Abier, the contient, by boat, Dragonborn fleeing Dragon Tyrants and crazy primordials, so think the Sword Coast would have alot more Dragonborn then some other regions, but they would have many cultural differences from Tymanther Dragonborn, because they come from other Dragonborn cultures.

 

[Dark Sun Gnome]

Ah, I get it now. Looking though at the lore for the race, Dragonborn on Toril are supposed to be a perfect combination of humanoid and draconic, and thats why they look like they do. I was looking at it like they were supposed to just be dragons, but playable. Now it makes a lot more sense, and looking at it that way, I do prefer the dray from Dark Sun and the draconians, but they are different.

The dray (at least in the original setting of DS) were made in the image of a mad sorcerer king that belived his form was the pinnacle of existance and that his children would inherit the entire planet as the dominant race when the Day of Light came and he rose to godhood. So it made sense that the dray looked like scaled down versions of a fully fledged dragon.

The draconians were made from corrupted eggs of metallic dragons, so it made sense that they looked somewhat like twisted mockeries of metallic dragons with a bit of humanoid influence thrown in. The (really nice) picture that was posted earlier was a kapak, which were born from copper dragon eggs and it does look like a twisted and scaled down version of a copper dragon, plus its hat is that its stealthy and they make up most of the assassins in the dragonarmies. And while it does look a bit devilish, remember that Tiamat (Takhisis) resides in the nine hells, and there are a group of devils (Abishi) that were the footsoldiers of the dread queen, and that look very much like dragons, and the resemblance is possibly (probably?) not a coincidence......

So, within the lore of FR, it makes sense that the dragonborn look the way they do. Of course, I would love to see ones that were skull faced.

I'm not the greatest fan of them, and I would have preferred to see emphasis on other realms races and others in the SCAG (volodni, the many scalyfolk, races from Kara-Tur) as well as the dragonborn, but I've no problem with them being in the Realms.

And as for prejudice, well, it would vary from region to region. In a place such as Thesk or Westgate, a dragonborn walking down the street might not even get a second glance, but in other places, they might arouse panic and fear.

 

[Mephista]

I don't particularly care about your world - to each her own. But you have a number of factual errors I feel compelled to point out.

Yes, but now their homeland is gone again, and from what I've read the majority of them never travelled far from their (transplanted) homeland.

Majority, no. But mercinary companies with dragonborn aren't unheard of either at the start of 5e's timeline. There are the orphans of Bahamut running around too. So, while not exactly common, its not exactly the same shock as finding an illithid or kobald adventurer.

It's a long way from Unther to the Sword Coast. Look at race relations in the real world. All of the various races have pretty much been around since the dawn of modern man, and interacting with each other for thousands of years now. Still not up to the same standard as the human/elven/dwarven/halfling dynamic that is the standard of most fantasy worlds.

Except that fantastic racism is a thing in most fantasy worlds. Its glossed over in D&D games simply because we need cooperative games involving mixed parties. But just look at the fiction - half-elves, tieflings, and half-orcs all suffer major prejudice. Elves and dwarves still have their age-old rivalry, which heats up anytime a dwarf goes to cut down trees for the forge. Halflings aren't even allowed a culture of their own - they are forced to live and work inside of human culture.

It works from my perspective in the Forgotten Realms because the elves have settled Toril for over 20,000 years, and they came to Toril with their culture intact. Humans have only factored in for the last 5,000 years or so, but they grew in a world where the elven and dwarves civilizations were well established, and the elves helped build human civilization, along with the dwarves to a lesser extent. So the dynamics of these cultures are very different in the Forgotten Realms than our own. But that doesn't translate to accepting new races, particularly because at this stage many of the elves and dwarves aren't sure that helping the humans was that wise of an idea, and the humans wish to maintain their civilizations and dominance.

Returned Uther is at war with the dragonborn. Prejudice in action. People in the Sword Coast and dalelands still stare and point at the dragonborn. Some point fingers, raise prices, try to trick them. Meanwhile, in dragonborn cities, they treat humans the opposite way, as outsiders.

So a new race would take many, many generations, to establish themselves as generally accepted in society, and that would require large numbers to do so. Neither of which apply regarding dragonborn in the Forgotten Realms. Considering they are described as following their own rigidly defined culture, and worship no gods, there is little reason for the majority of them to leave their homeland. Those that do would be very rare, particularly the farther you go from Tymanther, and would likely have difficulty fitting in with society in the rest of the Realms. Their honorability would play well, and eventually, in localized regions, an individual would become accepted, but that doesn't always translate to trusting an entire race. All of which lead me to believe that they would primarily be viewed with suspicion. The vast majority of Realmsfolk would never have heard of Tymanther.

I think you understimate gossip, especially with traveling bards who perform for money and food to spread news. And your assumption that the dragonborn would never leave their home is demonstratively false - a notable have been exiled for worshiping Bahamut, a number have left because the clan elders have become as tyranical as the dragons they once fought in their original plane, and some just adventure for the same reason that human villagers do, because they don't want to be sheep tenders. And dragonborn as a whole have made a name for themselves as dragon slayers, going out and hunting down dragons to kill. Its a cultural thing - one of the few ways to be honored as an actual adult.

So, for a PC - you are treated with suspicion, you are isolated from your culture where honor, clan, and family are among the most important parts of your life, most likely speaking a language that is not understood here (oh, right, common is exactly the same on every world in the D&D multiverse), and you quickly learn that the society on the rest of the world does not place honor and clan as the most important parts of life, and they worship unseen extraplanar beings and practice magic frequently.

Dragonborn have been on Toril for 100 years. Plenty of time for them to integrate Common as the most common language of their neightbors. And being bilingual is actually pretty common in most non-American cultures.

The only way you'd be in a generation that was born locally is that at the very least a pair of dragonborn had to leave their clan and family in their regimented society to settle in that uncomfortable location and start laying eggs. Of course, the second generation would somehow have to find different dragonborn to settle down with, requiring yet more to have made the journey from Tymanther, etc. Otherwise, you'd hail form Tymanther.

There are dragonborn enclaves outside of Tymanther already. I mentioned a few of them in passing already.

Now that the majority of them have returned to Abeir,

They have not. The majority of them were in Djerad Thymar, which was remained behind.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

I don't particularly care about your world - to each her own. But you have a number of factual errors I feel compelled to point out.

Majority, no. But mercinary companies with dragonborn aren't unheard of either at the start of 5e's timeline. There are the orphans of Bahamut running around too. So, while not exactly common, its not exactly the same shock as finding an illithid or kobald adventurer.

While it doesn't give numbers, it refers to ..the remaining dragonborn... (after the return of Unther), and under Honor and Family: 'The aftermath of the Sundering has tested these principles, leaving some clans fractured and decentralized...'

So assuming I will retain the Tymanther storyline, I'm taking the fact that it originally materially replaced the entire country, and the return of Unther did largely the same, with only a small region left of Tymanther.

Except that fantastic racism is a thing in most fantasy worlds. Its glossed over in D&D games simply because we need cooperative games involving mixed parties. But just look at the fiction - half-elves, tieflings, and half-orcs all suffer major prejudice. Elves and dwarves still have their age-old rivalry, which heats up anytime a dwarf goes to cut down trees for the forge. Halflings aren't even allowed a culture of their own - they are forced to live and work inside of human culture.

Totally agree. I wasn't saying everything was perfect, just that after thousands of years that those relationships had reached the state they are now. It varies from region to region, and also from settlement to settlement. For a race that appeared 100 years ago, they would be far from integrated into society, particularly in the numbers that would be exploring beyond the borders of Tymanther.

Returned Uther is at war with the dragonborn. Prejudice in action. People in the Sword Coast and dalelands still stare and point at the dragonborn. Some point fingers, raise prices, try to trick them. Meanwhile, in dragonborn cities, they treat humans the opposite way, as outsiders.

The animosity would vary from one location to another, but since the most common traveling dragonborn are with mercenary companies, it all depends on who hires them. In the past they probably would have been hired by the Zhentarim in great numbers, which would have tainted their names even more.

I think you understimate gossip, especially with traveling bards who perform for money and food to spread news. And your assumption that the dragonborn would never leave their home is demonstratively false - a notable have been exiled for worshiping Bahamut, a number have left because the clan elders have become as tyranical as the dragons they once fought in their original plane, and some just adventure for the same reason that human villagers do, because they don't want to be sheep tenders. And dragonborn as a whole have made a name for themselves as dragon slayers, going out and hunting down dragons to kill. Its a cultural thing - one of the few ways to be honored as an actual adult.

I think most people think of gossip and news as traveling far to fast, and more importantly, intact. News travels primarily with slow moving caravans, bards and minstrels, and adventuring parties, and based on gossip at the origin. The farther from the source, the more mouths it has passed through. News of this nature is notoriously slow and unreliable for more than a good tale, exaggerated by the bards and entertainers, and often met with disbelief by those who hear it. 'Really, dragon-men, what a great tale!'

Dragonborn have been on Toril for 100 years. Plenty of time for them to integrate Common as the most common language of their neightbors. And being bilingual is actually pretty common in most non-American cultures.

Under the assumption that they want to. Establishing their own (new) home in a strange world, particularly a potentially hostile one would take time to reach that point. Political emissaries and merchants would be the first to begin to learn a new language, but when back home they would use their native language. Near the borders with friendly neighbors they would start to learn some basic phrases (both directions) to communicate, and learning the basics. Europe remained linguistically divided (and still maintain a number of languages) with latin being a common denominator for religious texts, although most probably knew only the latin they learned in church, rather than being able to carry on a conversation with it.

100 years is a short time.

There are dragonborn enclaves outside of Tymanther already. I mentioned a few of them in passing already.

I've gone through the Campaign Setting, Neverwinter Campaign Setting, and the Player's Guide and the majority of references are to they Dragonborn in Tymanther or Returned Abeir. The major Dragon article (#365 I think) detailed what seems to be an alternate history than the dragonborn of Abeir. If there are more specifics I'd be interested in seeing them, but they are unlikely to change how I handle them in my campaign.

The Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide states, 'some of Tymanther's dragonborn have spread across Faerun and gained reputations as competent, highly sought-after mercenaries. Multiple sources did mention some of them being involved in the Cult of the Dragon (with dragonborn mercenary on the random encounter tables for Neverwinter as a whole along with the Cult of the Dragon random encounter table). As I mentioned before, being hired by groups such as the Cult of the Dragon isn't going to help their reputation in those areas specifically.

They have not. The majority of them were in Djerad Thymar, which was remained behind.

I base this on the fact that their land physically replaced Unther, which has now returned, displacing their land and driving them to a small area on the coast.

Much of my interpretation is supposition from the very limited published material I could find. It doesn't take into account Erin's books which are probably the largest source of information regarding the dragonborn in the Realms. I've only read a little bit of them, and really enjoyed the writing, just haven't been reading any fiction in some time.

Best I can tell, WotC purposely left most of things vague and up to the DM to determine how to incorporate the new race into their campaigns. My preference is to ignore them altogether, but I've found that's difficult to do. Some things are easier to ignore (like the elves > eladrin > elves thing).

I don't want to rain on anybody else's parade, we're all here to have fun. For those playing dragonborn in the realms I hope you're having a great time. I may lose the battle to exclude them from my Realms, and if that's the case I'll go with it.

Ilbranteloth