What 5e got wrong

[THEMNGMNT]

My only complaint thus far is about some of the subclasses. I think most of them are solid but some of them are conceptually muddy. For example, the mastermind rogue is somewhat like a warlord, with a real emphasis on combat. Yet one of their abilities is around disguise. Disguise works for an infiltrator or spy subclass. It just feels out of place with the mastermind. Similarly, I'm not a fan of the hound summoned by the shadow sorcerer. I'd rather see that subclass focused exclusively on cool stuff to do with shadow, kind of like the monk subclass. And save the companion for a summoner subclass. Long story short, I see too many subclasses with one or two features that just seem out of place for the concept.

 

[Tony Vargas]

For example, the mastermind rogue is somewhat like a warlord, with a real emphasis on combat. Yet one of their abilities is around disguise. Disguise works for an infiltrator or spy subclass. It just feels out of place with the mastermind.

Mastermind is less like a Warlord than a Holmes or a Mr. Phelps, and disguise seems pretty appropriate. Coincidentally, though, the last Warlord I played was a shapechanger specialized in bluff.

Similarly, I'm not a fan of the hound summoned by the shadow sorcerer. Long story short, I see too many subclasses with one or two features that just seem out of place for the concept.

And if they were different someone else might feel the same way about the alternative you'd prefer. 5e just needs a deal more customizability & flexibility than the current sub-class paradigm allows for, especially for those classes that don't have spells-known & prepped to provide both, respectively.

 

[Zardnaar]

To the OP that is nmore or less D&D as the 6 ability scorething is a sacred cow IHO that makes it D&D. Things 5E actually got wrong IMHO.

1. The saving throw system. 6 saves when 3 of them really only matter that much and 1 of them is barely used. Some classes have good basic saves (str/con) and other classes have meh saves (int/wis). IN effect your saves often get worse as you level up relative to the Cs as well.

2. The encounter building rules and the 2 short rest assumption and 6-8 encounters assumptions. Makes the game grindy.

3. The healing rate. Partly related to 2 but there is to much healing in this game combined with easy monsters. Makes the game a bit boring and 5E is crap at doing things like hex crawls or exploration games in the wilderness.

4. Subclass design. There are a few stinkers in the game.

 

[Psikerlord#]

5e was a huge opportunity to do some modernizing to the traditional ruleset of dungeons and dragons. They did a great job with this in certain aspects of the game, like the updated spellcasting rules. However, my biggest complaint by far about 5e is how they made almost no updates to the traditional attribute system d&D has always used, which frankly has a lot of problems.

Pillars of Eternity is a great example of how the 6-score system of D&D could have been easily updated into something more coherent, sensible, modern, and balanced. Not only do the 6 attributes in PoE make more conceptual/thematic sense, but they are also designed with the mantra of being useful independent of class. There's no such thing as a dump stat. Some stats may be more useful for some builds than other stats, but it comes much closer to being class-independent than D&D, which I vastly prefer because it makes character concepting and building much more engaging, with the potential for much more diversity, and opens up interesting role-play options.

I mostly agree. Pillars doesnt have a cha stat from what I can tell.

I am writing an OSR based low fantasy game, and have changed the attributes to str, dex, con, int (inc perception/detection), willpower (resisting mental affects) and charisma (influence/looks/leadership only). No wisdom.

The blurring of wisdom and int and cha in traditional DnD should have been corrected a long time ago imo.

 

[Maxperson]

I think 5e got bounded accuracy wrong. It was a great idea, but they bounded it a bit too tightly.

 

[Psikerlord#]

To the OP that is nmore or less D&D as the 6 ability scorething is a sacred cow IHO that makes it D&D. Things 5E actually got wrong IMHO.

1. The saving throw system. 6 saves when 3 of them really only matter that much and 1 of them is barely used. Some classes have good basic saves (str/con) and other classes have meh saves (int/wis). IN effect your saves often get worse as you level up relative to the Cs as well.

2. The encounter building rules and the 2 short rest assumption and 6-8 encounters assumptions. Makes the game grindy.

3. The healing rate. Partly related to 2 but there is to much healing in this game combined with easy monsters. Makes the game a bit boring and 5E is crap at doing things like hex crawls or exploration games in the wilderness.

4. Subclass design. There are a few stinkers in the game.

I agree with all the above. In addition:

5. passive perception is broken vs traps and doesnt actually help the game. it just makes problems.

6. Damage and hp are too inflated at higher levels. There should be no HD healing - that is just pure buffer which is unnecessary and stretches out the attrition game. Personally I would have capped the game at about level 12.

7. Personally, I prefer the rarer, stronger magic with no cantrips at all. I suppose that is more of a personal style thing. Still, it makes playing a "low fantasy" game impossible with 5e.

8. The short rest mechanic was a mistake. It makes wilderness and city adventures too easy for short rest classes, and dungeons too easy for long rest classes. Everything should have been set to the same recharge mechanic, probably the long rest. Short rest powers could have been 2/day (or 3/day or 1/day, varying by ability perhaps).

 

[THEMNGMNT]

Actually, I do have one really big criticism of 5E. It's too hard to run a no- or low-magic game like Dark Sun because so many class features are delivered through spells. I know many people have problems with 4E's powers, but they are great packets for delivering abilities and features, and because of 5E's reluctance to do the same there is an over-reliance on spell lists.

 

[Marandahir]

Why can't you just play a Fighter/Rogue/Barbarian/Monk/Ranger/Paladin?

None of them have cantrips by default and certainly not before level 3. Magic is rare or nonexistent for these classes.

If you don't care for magic, 5e doesn't need it. Just remove the caster classes and use backgrounds and feats to customize a bit to get at some of those other roles.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Actually, I do have one really big criticism of 5E. It's too hard to run a no- or low-magic game because so many class features are delivered through spells.

5e works fine without magic items pretty easily, though, which is what most D&Ders mean when they say low/no 'magic.' I get that's not what you're saying, just thought I'd mention that it's a weakness most fans don't care about (or even consider all classes using spells as features a, well, feature).

Why can't you just play a Fighter/Rogue/Barbarian/Monk/Ranger/Paladin?

They all have class features delivered by spells, though.

If you take it down to sub-classes, Champion, Battlemaster, Thief, Assassin, and Berserker don't have any class features even referencing spells, and those 5 are it for the PH.

To be fair, 5e has been adding non-caster sub-classes as fast as they can think of decent features for them, maybe even a little faster.

If you don't care for magic, 5e doesn't need it. Just remove the caster sub-classes and use backgrounds and feats to customize a bit to get at some of those other roles.

The remaining sub-classes give you a pretty limited party, though, and the odd background or feat won't replace the contributions the game expects from casters.

 

[Zardnaar]

Actually, I do have one really big criticism of 5E. It's too hard to run a no- or low-magic game like Dark Sun because so many class features are delivered through spells. I know many people have problems with 4E's powers, but they are great packets for delivering abilities and features, and because of 5E's reluctance to do the same there is an over-reliance on spell lists.

Most of the 2E classes cast spells as well. A 5E conversion of DS should just have very restricted subclass options. Fighters, Thief, Assasssin(bard), and the wizards/clerics be allowed (only 4 domains).