D&D 5E Fixing the Champion

[AaronOfBarbaria]

You know, it's always annoyed me that Fighters get a fourth attack...at level 20. Because then everyone uses 4 attacks as the benchmark for how much damage a Fighter can do, even though 3 attacks is the most that the vast majority of Fighters will ever see, and a good portion won't even see that.

I know that it isn't likely to actually happen given the way that people are, but I think this whole thing where we are basically in a state of treating "no one plays high level" being assumed as being true in 5th edition even though the reasons why "no one plays high level" has been true in other editions are not actually still true (or at least significantly less true than they used to be).

It's a new edition - it'd be great if people actually judged it on its own merits rather than limiting themselves to 12th level and below (or whatever, that's just one example) because 13th+ didn't work for them in whatever other edition.

So yeah, it's annoying to have people assuming every campaign will make it to 20th level because the game is designed so that you can actually play to, and beyond, 20th level - but it's also annoying to have people assuming that the goal of stretching out the older-edition "sweet spot" feel to a much broader point (i.e. 5th-20th instead of 5th-12th) has completely failed when the game has barely been out long enough for a significant number of folks to have actually given a try to playing all the way through even once. The only difference is whether the person is assuming the same thing as the designers (that the game is playable all the way through) or not.

 

[Uller]

While I understand that D and D is PvE and a collaborative game, I'm trying to improve the champion as a stand alone option.

I think the point folks are making is that the champion fills the niche it was meant for as is. My players are not optimizers and not tacticians. Some times that causes them to make choices that are suboptimal. If it effects the group equally then I don't really care...it just means challenges are harder for the group. But if one PC is lagging behind and it is because of our group's play, the player's choices or my DMing style I'll make suggestions or help the player modify his character to make it more fun for him or her.

In this case if a player is looking for an easy to play fighter that doesn't require much resource management I'd go with the suggestion someone made up thread....change the expanded crit range to a straight +1 damage. Every attack gives a little more oompf. It's on the PC sheet so the player won't forget.

But from MXP...I think you severely under estimate crits and the fun of them. At my table the fighter types are rolling d20s 10-15 times per fight, sometimes more. With expanded crit range of 19-20 that is a 65%-75% chance of scoring at least one crit per fight and a very good chance of even scoring 2 or even 3 or 4 while other fighter types will typically score 1 or none in most fights. Yes...damage may lag BM....but the fun of occasionally dropping 4 crits in a single combat is not matched by +1 every hit. If you just want reliably more damage then why would you not simply take the BM and use your superiority dice when you need to take a foe down quickly? Why have two subclasses fill the same niche?

 

[I'm A Banana]

No, I'm convinced. I hadn't considered that angle before. I wonder if it wouldn't be good advice to steal the champion towards two weapon fighting or pole arm mastery plus perhaps a Sentinal feat as well. The goal would be to jack up the number of attacks in order to trigger that crit. While individual attacks might be weaker, the volume would make up for it.

If you want to lean hard into optimizing the Champion, yeah, more attacks and more Advantage is what you want. I don't think it's exactly required, but it's where the Champion's mechanics are happiest, and Champions benefit from it more than most other character types.

It is kind of a shame though that sword and board champions, particularly in a group that is not interested in generating advantage on a regular basis, will still likely lag pretty badly vs other fighter archetypes. One that has a Druid liberally using faerie fire would be fine but without a helping hand from another PC, the champion really can give very lacklustre results.

True enough, but there are ways to do this without relying on the rest of the party. The Shove action is right there waiting for anyone to knock anyone prone (and the multiple attacks and action surges help Fighters do it without blowing their whole turn, and being STR focused means GOOD Athletics!), nets restrain enemies...okay, well, facing a Huge enemy, you might not have those options. There, Faerie Fire or someone blowing Sleep or Hypnotic Pattern are good options.

This is part of what makes Champions a good "learner" subclass - the focus is on applying the things that are not part of the class (TWF vs. Shield vs. Greatweapon, Help, Dash, Shove, Grapple, martial weapons like the Net, whatever circumstances might come out in a fight) to really maximize your effectiveness

 

[Azurewraith]

Really? Take the Shield Master feat, bash the opponent prone with your bonus action, then let rip with up to 4 attacks (more with Action Surge), all with Advantage. Plus your mates get to attack with Advantage too.

Will that work? I'm afb but don't you have to make an attack action to so the push will be late? But then there's no sequencing ignore my prattling

 

[Hawk Diesel]

You know, it's always annoyed me that Fighters get a fourth attack...at level 20. Because then everyone uses 4 attacks as the benchmark for how much damage a Fighter can do, even though 3 attacks is the most that the vast majority of Fighters will ever see, and a good portion won't even see that.

That's actually something that was discussed in a topic created by [MENTION=6788934]Einlanzer0[/MENTION]. Might wanna check that thread out for some ideas.

As for this discussion, it seems like there are a few camps. One camp believes the Champion is meant to be a simple, elegant, class meant to ease people into the game or for those that don't want to track a lot. I get that. But in my personal opinion, it doesn’t really address the original question regarding comparative power level to other class options. Increase in power level can be achieved while maintaining the simplicity and elegance of the champion, in my opinion.

Another camp seems to be that the Champion's abilities rely on chance while the BM can activate his powers as needed. In this sense, it is theoretically possible (though unlikely) that the Champion may never crit, while the BM can enjoy his abilities so long as he has superiority dice left. For me, personally, this is a poor game design. Yes, this game inherently runs on a lot being left to the dice gods. However, powers and abilities should not wholly be left to chance, in my opinion. Even the Wild Mage Sorcerer has more say over when he is going to surge (he just needs to use his Tides of Chaos ability). Giving the Champion a solid bonus that is consistently activated by the player is not an unreasonable request from my standpoint.

 

[ChrisCarlson]

Another camp seems to be that the Champion's abilities rely on chance while the BM can activate his powers as needed. In this sense, it is theoretically possible (though unlikely) that the Champion may never crit, while the BM can enjoy his abilities so long as he has superiority dice left.

What an odd notion. How does one come to the opinion that the BM abilities do not also require chance? They are called superiority dice, after all. Many require that you first score a successful hit before you can even hope to use them. Others allow the opponent a save to resist. Others still may prove underwhelming or fail to achieve the desired result. All because of chance.

Look. I've played a battlemaster. I've experienced sessions where my superiority dice provided little to no noticeable help. Regardless of how hard I efforted to the contrary. Other times they've been a godsend. Just like I've seen multiple champions in play and some nights they underperformed. Other sessions I've seen them go on sick tears mopping the floor with our adversaries.

 

[krakistophales]

Can we get rid of this notion that the champion is some kind of training wheels, beginner friendly alternative to a more resource tracking concept? That's not the point of this thread. We all know that champion is a great option for those who don't know the game or don't want to track anything and just get straight into the game, but simplicity shouldn't equal weakness.

And no, the champion absolutely DOES NOT fulfill its design purpose at all. It is a class whose premise is that it SHOULD crit more often than any other class/archetype, and that it should be a more raw power, superior physical specimen sort of theme, which is why you get remarkable athlete and regeneration and all that. Mechanically, however, the champion fails at ALL these things. Sure, you can theoretically crit more often on a natural 19 or 18, but in most cases you aren't critting. Most attacks will be just that, regular attacks. So the solution is one of two things:

1. If you want the champion to be crit meister, then actually give him the tools to do it. 18 crit at 3rd level, 16 crit as the second one. This is a 25% chance total to crit at the highest boost, and this is a must if you actually want to see an appreciable amount of crits compared to everyone else.

2. Get rid of the crit chance altogether, and instead give the champion static bonuses to damage, like someone's proficiency bonus to damage idea. This keeps the simplistic theme, no resource tracking, but will guarantee that the champion will be a damage dealer, superior physical specimen fighter. That, and give him something akin to brutal critical, where instead of adding more dice like the barbarian does, simply give him a static ability to maximize his damage dice and double his static bonus on a crit, but keep it at a natural 20. This way, the champion will be dealing more damage overall consistently, has an interesting "wow" factor related to crits on the rare chance that he does crit, and still maintains the simple, easily accessible theme, but will actually now be comparable to a battlemaster in terms of overall damage output.

Again, the remarkable athlete thing needs to become a full proficiency bonus ability. Without that, he's a "so-so" athlete, and there's no reasoning behind why this shouldn't be the case, except some people hollering about the bard's jack of all trades. Who cares? Why shouldn't the champion fighter be able to boost his other physical skills by a mere proficiency bonus? We're talking a difference of +1 or +2 here for most of the fighter's career. Is this really an issue?

Lastly, I know people want to whine about unique characters and suboptimal builds and all that. That's also not the point of this discussion. This discussion pertains to the mechanical optimal efficiency of the champion, or lack thereof, and how the archetype can be improved so that it isn't an obvious trap option versus battlemaster or eldritch knight.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I've experienced sessions where my superiority dice provided little to no noticeable help. Regardless of how hard I efforted to the contrary. Other times they've been a godsend. Just like I've seen multiple champions in play and some nights they underperformed. Other sessions I've seen them go on sick tears mopping the floor with our adversaries.

Yep, people often forget that it's perfectly normal for a player to spend one session rolling kinda so-so, the next rolling so badly that their d20 may as well have been a d8, and the next after that pulling off stuff like critting on all 3 attacks they get to make, not rolling less than 18 on the die for initiative for the whole session, and getting nearly maximum damage on more than half of their attacks.

Oddly, it seems more common that folks forgetting that are the ones that are more interested in the numbers part of the game, which makes it a bit ironic in my opinion.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

..simplicity shouldn't equal weakness.

In the case of the Champion, it doesn't - at least not to an actually significant degree.

1. If you want the champion to be crit meister, then actually give him the tools to do it. 18 crit at 3rd level, 16 crit as the second one. This is a 25% chance total to crit at the highest boost, and this is a must if you actually want to see an appreciable amount of crits compared to everyone else.

Not that I'll ever agree with you that 2 or 3 times as likely to score a critical hit isn't going to result in seeing an appreciable amount of crits compared to everyone else... but, are you aware of the critical chance you saying that a champion needs once advantage comes into play?

Advantage and criticals on an 18+ is a 27.75% chance of a critical hit. Nearly 1/3.
Advantage and criticals on a 16+ is a 43.75% chance of a critical. Nearly 1/2.

That's not just making the champion the "crit meister" class - it's making the champion a shoe-in for king of the dpr prom.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Yep, people often forget that it's perfectly normal for a player to spend one session rolling kinda so-so, the next rolling so badly that their d20 may as well have been a d8, and the next after that pulling off stuff like critting on all 3 attacks they get to make, not rolling less than 18 on the die for initiative for the whole session, and getting nearly maximum damage on more than half of their attacks.

Oddly, it seems more common that folks forgetting that are the ones that are more interested in the numbers part of the game, which makes it a bit ironic in my opinion.

I'm not sure it's a matter of "forgetting" at all. Divergent results are guaranteed to happen--rarely. That's part of what makes them divergent results, but it also means you should never expect or bank on them. Any given randomly-selected session, however, should have results that follow the expected distribution of the d20, aka uniform within some margin of error. And it is the gambler's fallacy to assume that a session of bad rolls must be "made up for" by a session of good rolls down the line, or vice-versa.