D&D 5E Fixing the Champion

[krakistophales]

So how do you feel the Champion's capabilities do not match up with the EK or BM? In versatility? Damage per round? Damage per day? Interesting options to take?

People have shown you the math that indicates that numbers-wise the Champion is balanced with the other two subclasses. They're using the "standard adventuring day" given in the guidelines as a base assumption.

Does this fit with your experience, or do your games tend to use a different baseline? If you have less fights per day, the EK will shine brighter. If you have more short rests, the BM will dominate.

Admittedly, I'm only using my personal experience using a champion across two games, one to level 4 and one to level 8, as the basis for my opinion. In both games, I found the expanded crit range to not be significant enough to grant the champion an appreciable, consistent damage boost that would allow him to keep up with the damage capability of the battlemaster, even in campaigns with short rests per 4 encounters.

So while on paper the champion is quoted as "developing raw physical power honed to deadly perfection" and "combining rigorous training with physical excellence to deal DEVASTATING BLOWS", mechanically, the champ does anything but that. The EK beats him out of the water in versatility, and the BM beats him out of the water in DPR.

For this reason, I started this thread to see if something can be done about changing the archetype. A few balanced, well-thought out changes that will bring the champ up to snuff with his other two archetypes, that's all. The two best ideas I've heard from others was to grant him proficiency bonus to damage, and instead of adding another fighting style, adding proficiency to another skill of choice. I proposed simply expanding the critical threat range to a 25% maximum and adding full prof to remarkable athlete, and then I'd think we'd have something very close to the slayer of 4th edition, albeit with proficiency in a non-physical skill, something like pathfinder's bonuses to will saves against fear, since fighters are supposed to be tough as nails mentally, at least against fear.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

You could swap the existing Crit improvements for feats perhaps? Savage attacker would improve consistent damage, and Resilient (Wisdom) would improve Fear saves?

 

[krakistophales]

You could swap the existing Crit improvements for feats perhaps? Savage attacker would improve consistent damage, and Resilient (Wisdom) would improve Fear saves?

So then that would have to be 2 more ASIs. Best place for them would probably be level 3 and level 10, so you get one earlier than anyone else and you get one in between the large gap of 8th and 12th level. Sounds like a champ to me...thematically, but you don't need savage attacker with the great weapon or dueling fighting styles, while resilience could be viable. There has to be some more consistent way of doling out damage, which would probably be adding profiency to damage. This way you have a nice, slow but steady buildup of extra damage, and it would fit thematically.

 

[psychophipps]

I skipped a bunch (sorry, but the last 4 pages I read wasn't really adding much), but my one change I would make to the Champion archetype would be to apply the Athletic level bonus (sorry, books at home) also to skills the character is proficient in. Basically, +50% proficiency bonus to all physical skills, regardless of skilled or not.
I see no issues otherwise, to be honest.

 

[GAMERSAVATAR]

Short chime in, on this, Im starting a new campaign next month and im working out some things in advance for my players, and yeah I feel Champ could get a little shining, based on past gaming in other additions where you could just wield different weapons to increase crit chance, a lvl 17 - 18 crits isnt super great... from some of the pages ive seen, adding that earlier makes sense to me maybe a 17@17 crit with the 18 @9th?

also the athletic bonus...dont recall its name im just gonna give my players the half pro. bonus even on top of a skill they already have, kinda a half double proficiencies thats the flavor that feels more robust but not such a game changer, frankly mostly likely most campaigns players arnt gonna make it to 17th anyway, and criting on 18 at 8-10th lvl isnt OP . Unless multi-classed, u wont have much extra dice to roll than just it normal weapon die/dice dam. roll