D&D 5E Fixing the Champion

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[krakistophales]

This is why these conversations are rarely productive. Yes, the Barbarian can gain advantage ... by also getting disadvantage on attacks against him.

Whereas the crit advantage of the Champion is always on, with no disadvantage.

(That said, your math is a little off- advantage gives you a slightly less than 10% chance of rolling a crit, Champion gives you exactly a 10% chance).

Anyway, you're welcome to do what you want. But if you're suffering from BM or Barbarian envy, why not just play them? In the end, it's about having fun. Not about DPR.

And, sure, if the only thing that makes you happy is souping up the Champion, you should do it. Tell us how it goes.

Unless there's some mathematical mystery I'm not grasping here, a 5% chance twice becomes a total of a 10% chance, therefore anyone attacking with advantage has 10% chance to crit over the usual 5%.

I don't have barbarian or battlemaster envy, I just wish that when they designed the champion archetype that they would've put more work into balancing it out vs. the battlemaster and EK. The EK has awesome options, but what balances him out is that he's a 3rd caster and needs a long rest to restore spells. BM has few SD and needs a short rest. If you're gonna make champion a no-resource management, simple option, then at least make his overall capability comparable to the other two, and this is what I seek to accomplish in this thread, with everyone's help of course.

 

[Uller]

Unless there's some mathematical mystery I'm not grasping here, a 5% chance twice becomes a total of a 10% chance, therefore anyone attacking with advantage has 10% chance to crit over the usual 5%.
.

It's a reasonable approximation for a small number of chances but the formula for at least one crit is 1-M^N where M is the chance to not crit and N is the number of attempts. So 1-.95^2 or 90.25%. By your reasoning, 20 attacks would give a 100% chance of a crit...

 

[TwoSix]

Unless there's some mathematical mystery I'm not grasping here, a 5% chance twice becomes a total of a 10% chance, therefore anyone attacking with advantage has 10% chance to crit over the usual 5%.

It's actually 9.75% (39/400). There are 400 (20 x 20) combinations of 2d20, and 39 of them have at least one 20 in it. [(1,20) through (19,20) is 19, (20,1) through (20,19) is another 19, and (20,20) is the 39th].

It intuitively makes more sense, because if you used your method, you'd have a 100% critical chance if crits happened on 11 or higher. (50% chance of 11 or higher + 50% chance of 11 or higher.), and I'm pretty sure we've all seen advantage rolls get 10 or less, sadly.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[rczarnec]

Unless there's some mathematical mystery I'm not grasping here, a 5% chance twice becomes a total of a 10% chance, therefore anyone attacking with advantage has 10% chance to crit over the usual 5%.

Rolling with advantage gives a 9.75% chance to crit.

Basically, there are 39 outcomes (out of 400) for the two dice where at least one of them is a 20. The reason for the difference is that there is a 1 in 400 chance (0.25%) chance that you roll a 20 on both dice, which still only counts as 1 crit.


edit: I see that multiple people have already answered this.

 

[cmad1977]

I would like to 'fix' the people who want to 'fix' the champion.

As a non-fighter, here are the things I want out of the champion in my parties in order to feel like he was a valuable member of the party.

1- courageous streak: I want the champion to face danger with a smile/sneer/smirk/frown. Cowardice makes for a bad champion.

2-taking point: I want to be behind the champion somewhere. Not only is he protecting us softer guys, it's easier to see threats to him and help out.

3-Durability: When I wince at the damage the champion takes and he says 'ok, who's turn now?' I chuckle. Or when I groan because the monsters rolled an 18 and he says 'missed me!'

Those are the big things I look for when a champion is in the group.

 

[Uller]

It's a reasonable approximation for a small number of chances but the formula for at least one crit is 1-M^N where M is the chance to not crit and N is the number of attempts. So 1-.95^2 or 90.25%. By your reasoning, 20 attacks would give a 100% chance of a crit...

Haha...I just noticed I put the correct formula but the incorrect answer (didn't subtract from 1)...that's why it's so important to show your work for partial credit, people!

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

I'm pretty sure AaronofBarbaria has already informed us that averages don't matter (or was that the other thread?).

Where ever it was that I said it, that's not quite what I said.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Unless there's some mathematical mystery I'm not grasping here, a 5% chance twice becomes a total of a 10% chance, therefore anyone attacking with advantage has 10% chance to crit over the usual 5%.

I don't have barbarian or battlemaster envy, I just wish that when they designed the champion archetype that they would've put more work into balancing it out vs. the battlemaster and EK. The EK has awesome options, but what balances him out is that he's a 3rd caster and needs a long rest to restore spells. BM has few SD and needs a short rest. If you're gonna make champion a no-resource management, simple option, then at least make his overall capability comparable to the other two, and this is what I seek to accomplish in this thread, with everyone's help of course.

So how do you feel the Champion's capabilities do not match up with the EK or BM? In versatility? Damage per round? Damage per day? Interesting options to take?

People have shown you the math that indicates that numbers-wise the Champion is balanced with the other two subclasses. They're using the "standard adventuring day" given in the guidelines as a base assumption.

Does this fit with your experience, or do your games tend to use a different baseline? If you have less fights per day, the EK will shine brighter. If you have more short rests, the BM will dominate.