D&D 5E (2014) Any one have any clue about the DC to apply poison?

CapnZapp · Jan 30, 2016

Edit: double post

CapnZapp · Jan 30, 2016

The proper take-away is, I think, not to bend over backwards in trying to apply real-world logics to your fantasy game, but to ask yourself the direct question "do I and my players find poison use fun, or do we consider it disruptive to our campaign?"

If you answer "fun", then by all means introduce special containers that allow risk-free poison use, no skill check necessary. And either read the rules to mean one dose of poison applies to all hits within one minute, or perhaps that you can use your free "object interaction" to coat your weapon once per round as part of your action (similar to how monsters like Drow seem to operate).

If you answer "disruptive", then by all means use the Basic Poison as a model to restrict one poison dose to a single weapon or three pieces of ammunition, and say that once you hit, the poison is expended, and also add a skill check each time you apply poison with failure by more than 5 signaling "you accidentally poisoned yourself".

Both rules readings are equally valid. Neither is RAW, but neither is wrong either.

If the design team wanted to write unequivocal poison rules, I think they would have done so. Instead, I believe the ambiguity and incompleteness is fully intentional, so that 5th edition will appeal to both poison-lovers and poison-haters alike, without scaring either group away.

Athinar · Jan 30, 2016

I think the Rogue(Assassin) was built with the Poison Use to achieve the balance in the game for that class

AaronOfBarbaria · Jan 30, 2016

Athinar said:
I think the Rogue(Assassin) was built with the Poison Use to achieve the balance in the game for that class

Care to elaborate?

Athinar · Jan 30, 2016

Comparing the Assassin with the other classes – the Assassin is weakened without the use of poison and normally runs away from the battle because the assassin cannot go toe to toe with an equally matched level character (found out the hard way when my assassin was charmed by a demon and was forced to try to kill other party members, my assassin was on the ground in no time, even used the Cloak of Elvenkind to hide and attack from hiding, No Poison)
If the assassin had poison then the fighter would have been hurt more
The first 3 rounds of combat are normally all it takes to end a battle, and the 3 rounds are used to figure out the CR of a creature, the extra damage from poison increases the possible damage amount for one hit or two hits (2 weapons are poisoned)
No Poison and no companions:
First round – assassinate (Crit sneak attack) – flesh wound
Second round - weapon + nothing - very little damage
Third round - assassin is dead - or the assassin flees
Poison and no companions:
First round – assassinate (Crit sneak attack) - poison good damage (maybe poison condition or extra damage)
Second round - weapon + poison second weapon – good damage or victim has disadvantage to attack and saves
Third round - assassin wins - victim falls over dead

Illithidbix · Jan 30, 2016

Isn't that true of all rogues though?

Sneak Attack primary relies upon either Stealth to grant advantage, or a friend in melee with your target.

Assassins seem far more focused around surprise than poison in my opinion. I think they're a little too much a one trick pony and reliant upon gaining surprise.

Never found Player Vs Player a good barometer of gauging character power, since it's an anomaly in how the game is played.

AaronOfBarbaria · Jan 31, 2016

Athinar said:
Comparing the Assassin with the other classes – the Assassin is weakened without the use of poison and normally runs away from the battle because the assassin cannot go toe to toe with an equally matched level character (found out the hard way when my assassin was charmed by a demon and was forced to try to kill other party members, my assassin was on the ground in no time, even used the Cloak of Elvenkind to hide and attack from hiding, No Poison)
If the assassin had poison then the fighter would have been hurt more
The first 3 rounds of combat are normally all it takes to end a battle, and the 3 rounds are used to figure out the CR of a creature, the extra damage from poison increases the possible damage amount for one hit or two hits (2 weapons are poisoned)
No Poison and no companions:
First round – assassinate (Crit sneak attack) – flesh wound
Second round - weapon + nothing - very little damage
Third round - assassin is dead - or the assassin flees
Poison and no companions:
First round – assassinate (Crit sneak attack) - poison good damage (maybe poison condition or extra damage)
Second round - weapon + poison second weapon – good damage or victim has disadvantage to attack and saves
Third round - assassin wins - victim falls over dead

Thanks for elaborating.

I don't think poison is actually needed for the Assassin to reach the intended balance in the game, but that is because I am working on the assumption that the intended balance of the game is a group of characters vs. monsters - which is very different from the assumption you are working on that "toe to toe with an equal level character" is the target (I don't think it was even a remote consideration made by the designers).