D&D 5E Do you want your DM to fudge?

As a player, do you want your DM to fudge? (with the same answer choices as that other poll).

  • Yes

    Votes: 47 23.7%
  • Almost never

    Votes: 77 38.9%
  • No, never

    Votes: 74 37.4%

There's been too much emphasis in this conversation on what the players feel. This inevitably raises the question of whether completely unnoticeable fudging does anything harmful to the game.

A good game is like being in love: it only counts if everyone involved is participating authentically. Challenge-based play is not about what the players feel; it's about what they achieve! When you fudge the players don't really achieve what they feel like they did.

If one boxer takes a dive because he's been paid off, it's not a good match even if the other boxer felt really challenged, and even if the crowd didn't notice and fully enjoyed the fight. There's obviously something hollow about the win.

This is why fudging is a bad technique when challenge is the goal of play.
 

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I feel like fudging partially invalids some of what tabletop RPGs stand for. Take away the dice and you have a collaborative story. Dice help make it a game. If you fudge the rolls then it is staged and it tips the scale in the direction of storytelling.

That doesn't make sense.

RPGs are about both playing a game and telling a story (among other things). They're not 60% of one and 40% of the other in some fixed proportion. By that logic, sticking to the rules "partially invalids some of what tabletop RPGs stand for" because it tips things in the direction of the dice. Which seems equally senseless.

In the end, the rules go out the window when they get in the way of the game overall or produce a nonsensical result.

You're also presuming the fudging is in the aid of telling a specific story, which isn't my experience of fudging. Most fudging I've ever seen has been in the aid of shoring up a broken system, or preventing lots of wasted time on further, inconsequential dice rolls.

Nope,they're not independent-- fudging ALWAYS risks reducing challenge

Again, no, you're making huge presumptions about why fudging is happening. A lot of fudging I've seen has been in aid of increasing challenge.

Well, we do have [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION] saying that any player who asks him if he fudges at the table gets booted out of the table. So, there is that. Makes it pretty hard to have a conversation when asking the first question gets you shown the door.

Ironically though, that is precisely what Aaron wants - to know if their desires match. So presumably he's fine with that. He'd have walked anyway.
 


Nope,they're not independent-- fudging ALWAYS risks reducing challenge (if someone finds out, just as you are always risking hitting someone in yr car going faster)

It always risks changing challenge. It does not always risk reducing challenge, nor does not always change challenge. This is because they are independent of one another. If they were not independent, challenge would always be affected, and in the same way, just like your flawed driving analogy. Always reduced or always increased.

and fudging literally always changes the story (nobody would fudge from a miss on a 7 to a miss on an 8, it's only worth fudging to change what happens in the world from x damage to y or a miss to a hit or a fail to a success or a success to a crit, etc).

When it changes story it can change it for the better, the worse or leave it the same as far as quality goes.
 

...would you be willing to demonstrate an example of how that could happen without any references whatsoever to the fact of whether you fudge or not? Because it seems pretty hard to have a conversation about action X, when asking about action X is an automatic "trust abrogated, no discussion allowed" flag...

Sure. I already posted it, but I'll post it again. If a player opened up with something like, "I was in this discussion on line about whether fudging was okay or not, and I think X. What do you think?" and opened up a discussion with the group, it would not be demonstrating a lack of trust. Rather, it would just be a rules/style discussion.
 

Sure. I already posted it, but I'll post it again. If a player opened up with something like, "I was in this discussion on line about whether fudging was okay or not, and I think X. What do you think?" and opened up a discussion with the group, it would not be demonstrating a lack of trust. Rather, it would just be a rules/style discussion.
And if the player opened with "Hey Max, do you fudge?" but was meaning that to open the same discussion?
 

Fudging is a necessary evil, but tell your players you don't!

In my humble opinion, fudging is a (very, very occasional) necessary evil. I try and avoid it. As a DM, I have told my players that I don't do it.


RPGs are a combination of collaborative storytelling with added chance, provided by the dice, in order to send the developing story off in unexpected directions. Further, the dice are dispassionate, and help absolve the DM of personal responsibility for unfavourable outcomes.


On this basis, the DM's role is to provide a series of challenges for the characters, some of which they will succeed at most of the time because they are proficient in handling the challenge, and some of which they will mostly fail at because they are unequal to the challenge.


An RPG is a series of carefully considered gambling opportunities for the players.


In a situation which is dangerous, or even a matter of life and death, they must therefore consider if they wish to take the gamble and risk the lows of failure or the highs of success. That is fundamentally where the excitement comes from.


If the DM fudged ALL his rolls, everyone might as well discard the rulebooks and just agree to collaborate on a story (and there's nothing wrong with that, in fact I recommend it for a novel experience).


If the DM fudges SOME of his rolls, he must choose what story events to 'fix', and this gives a muddy experience: why choose to reject a result which kills a character, for example, but not one which allows a character to succeed spectacularly? The DM is in danger of being held personally responsible for unfavourable outcomes, and players may make riskier choices expecting to be let off.


If the DM fudges NONE of his rolls, he must provide carefully considered challenges. More importantly, the players must carefully consider whether they wish to engage with the risks presented to them (such as by gathering as much information as they can about the risk before they charge in).


Of course, designing encounters remains an inexact science, which:
A) places even more onus on the players to gather intel (even an encounter designed to be 'fair' can throw up unpleasant surprises)
B) might occasionally mean that the players should cut their losses and run away from a challenge


And, of course, the DM is entitled to design challenges from which the players SHOULD run away, or that are easy to beat. If all encounters were moderate gambles, the players would eventually learn that there's limited need for intel, since they already have a premonition of their odds of success.


So when do I fudge? My DM style is quite cinematic, and I am particularly sensitive to maintaining the right pace and mood for each scene in a session. I fudge when the dice cause an event which is utterly disastrous to the momentum of the ongoing session.


I once DM'd a new player, whose play style was to charge in to combat before I'd even finished describing the scene. I soon realised that this wasn't just roleplaying his character. He was playing a kind of meta game: daring me to kill his character and seem cruel, or relent and ameliorate the encounter so that he won out. I kept my encounters exactly at the risk level I had designed them, from the easy intro fight, to the 'a smart guy knows when to run away to fight another day' encounter. Our collaborative story that night turned out to be about the rash fool who ran into every fight and died.
 



Now there is a question. If you softball an encounter by say, changing tactics and allowing the pc's to get the upper hand, is that fudging?

If the stakes are clear, yes. The key thing in my view is not to commit to stakes with which you are not comfortable. If you can't accept death being a result of a life-or-death situation, then change the stakes to some other win/loss conditions you would accept, make them known, and play on.

Challenge is about winning or losing on your own merits, whatever winning and losing may mean in a given situation. If you won't allow the established loss conditions to come into play, then you're removing challenge. If you do allow the win/loss conditions to come into play, but change up tactics or ignore die rolls, you're modifying difficulty in one direction or another.
 

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