D&D 5E How Good/Bad are Monks?

[FrogReaver]

They really drop off after 5th mate.

Theyre not bad mind you. Just nothing compared to a GWM barbarian/ battlemaster/ paladin.

I'd say giving your whole party advantage (even ranged allies) by stunning an enemy while still having decent DPR on your own is arguably more DPR caused by you than any normal DPR focused melee build.

 

[Flamestrike]

I think having the extra ki points granted by monk are better than superiority dice in all situations. Superiority dice cannot grant extra attacks or stun an opponent.

I would go directly to monk 5 for stunning fist. I would not pass GO and I would not collect 200 dollars.

Next level I am sacrificing 1 Ki per short rest for (fighting style, 1/ short rest heal 1d10+1) so about even. Then the following level I am sacrificing 1 Ki point per short rest for (1/ action surge per short rest) - again about even. For level 8 (monk 5/ BM 3) I am sacrificing 1 Ki point for 4 superiority dice per short rest. Clear advantage to the MC build.

At 8th level, instead of rationing 8 Ki points over a short rest, you wind up rationing 5 ki points, 1 action surge, 1 second wind and 4 superiority dice. It's a pretty good trade off.

A [monk 5/ BM 3] armed with a Katana/ Jian [shortsword]:

Attack: 2 sword attacks [1d6+dex+2] plus 2 flurry attacks or 1 martial arts attack [1d6+dex]
Plus: Stunning fist, OHM flurry kncokback, precise strike/ disarming attack from BM, action surge, stunning fist.

A [monk 8]
Attack: Attack: 2 staff attacks [1d8+dex] plus 2 flurry attacks or 1 martial arts attack [1d6+dex]
Plus: Stunning fist, OHM flurry kncokback, stunning fist.

Note how in both cases, the damage is pretty middling. However the monk/ BM can: Move + attack twice + action surge attack twice + flurry for six attacks, spamming stunning fist, disarming strike, precise strike, OHM knockdown (and then use his free object interaction to pick up the stunned creatures disarmed weapon). You can also use action surge to take the run action (increasing your move speed), the dodge action (increase defence) the withdraw action (avoiding AOO to get to your priority target) then use your move to close the gap, then attack + flurry for 4 attacks spamming stunning fist/ disarming strike/ OHM knockdown etc.

You gain an [action surge] plus flurry 6 attack + 4 sup dice + disarming/ tripping/ stunning nova option in your pocket for when needed. Its a totally worthwhile trade (although it does delay feats and proff in all saves)

Plus:

 

[Flamestrike]

I'd say giving your whole party advantage (even ranged allies) by stunning an enemy while still having decent DPR on your own is arguably more DPR caused by you than any normal DPR focused melee build.

No argument re stunning fist. Its super potent. It helps you as well (resolve your stunning fist attacks first, giving yourself advantage on all your attacks this round and next round. A stunned target also automatically fails str and dex saves, meaning its automatically knocked prone by OHM flurries and its also automatically disarmed if youre a BM and spam disarming strike while its stunned.

And your own DPR isnt good. Thats where BM comes in. Action surge 1/short rest and +1d8 damage 4/ short rest help.

 

[FrogReaver]

Monk 8 > Monk 5 BattleMaster 3

Both get everything a monk 5 would get.

Additionally the Monk 8 gets:
Evasion
Stillness of Mind
+5 move speed
+3 ki/short rest (which can be used for more stunning strikes)
Wholeness of body (3*monk level hp / long rest = 24 hp / long rest)
ASI/Feat

Additionally the Monk 5 BattleMaster 3 gets:
1d10+3 healing per short rest (8.5 avg healing per short rest)
action surge (primarily used for 2 extra attacks per short rest)
4 superiority dice
Fighting Style

-----------------------------------
3 ki >> 4 superiority dice
Wholeness of body + stillness of mind >> Second Wind
Evasion + 5 move speed >> Action Surge
ASI/Feat >> Fighting Style

Don't really know how anyone comes away saying 3 levels of battlemaster is better than 3 additional levels of monk...

 

[FrogReaver]

No argument re stunning fist. Its super potent. It helps you as well (resolve your stunning fist attacks first, giving yourself advantage on all your attacks this round and next round. A stunned target also automatically fails str and dex saves, meaning its automatically knocked prone by OHM flurries and its also automatically disarmed if youre a BM and spam disarming strike while its stunned.

And your own DPR isnt good. Thats where BM comes in. Action surge 1/short rest and +1d8 damage 4/ short rest help.

1. Prone sucks if the guy is stunned.....

2. BM superiority dice doesn't actually help with DPR. Having more KI to keep up stunning and flurrying will do more for DPR than using superiority dice.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Wholeness of body + stillness of mind >> Second Wind

Out of curiosity: since Wholeness of Body actually heals less than Second Wind over the course of a two-short-rest day, it seems like you must be weighting Stillness of Mind as very valuable. Do you mind if I ask why, and under what circumstances? Immunity to charm would be quite nice, but having to spend your action to eliminate charm means that it doesn't work against most of the things you're really afraid of, such as Hypnotic Pattern, Modify Memory, Dominate, etc. I see this as a ribbon, fluffy but irrelevant.

If instead of "spend your action" it were "spend a ki point", it would go from irrelevant to completely awesome.

 

[FrogReaver]

Out of curiosity: since Wholeness of Body actually heals less than Second Wind over the course of a two-short-rest day, it seems like you must be weighting Stillness of Mind as very valuable. Do you mind if I ask why, and under what circumstances? Immunity to charm would be quite nice, but having to spend your action to eliminate charm means that it doesn't work against most of the things you're really afraid of, such as Hypnotic Pattern, Modify Memory, Dominate, etc. I see this as a ribbon, fluffy but irrelevant.

If instead of "spend your action" it were "spend a ki point", it would go from irrelevant to completely awesome.

A 24 heal with wholeness of body vs three 8.5 heals assuming 2 short rests. That's a difference of 1.5 hp.

So basically I'm weighting stillness of mind much more valuable than 1.5 hp of healing at level 8....

Honestly I would deem the ability to cancel fear alone worth much greather than 1.5 hp...... That it can help on even some charm effects is just gravy.

 

[Flamestrike]

Monk 8 > Monk 5 BattleMaster 3

Both get everything a monk 5 would get.

Additionally the Monk 8 gets:
Evasion
Stillness of Mind
+5 move speed
+3 ki/short rest (which can be used for more stunning strikes)
Wholeness of body (3*monk level hp / long rest = 24 hp / long rest)
ASI/Feat

Additionally the Monk 5 BattleMaster 3 gets:
1d10+3 healing per short rest (8.5 avg healing per short rest)
action surge (primarily used for 2 extra attacks per short rest)
4 superiority dice
Fighting Style

-----------------------------------
3 ki >> 4 superiority dice
Wholeness of body + stillness of mind >> Second Wind
Evasion + 5 move speed >> Action Surge
ASI/Feat >> Fighting Style

Don't really know how anyone comes away saying 3 levels of battlemaster is better than 3 additional levels of monk...

I disagree with your ratings.

• A point of Ki is directly comparable to a sup dice.
• Second wind is better than wholeness of body over a 2 short rest AD
• I would take Action surge 1/ short rest over Evasion + 5' move speed any day of the week
• ASI/ Feat is better than a fighting style agreed. That said, the BM fighter also gets extra HP and bigger HD

A Monk 5/ BM 3 is capable of (no magic weapon) launching a six attack burst (action surge + attack action + flurry) dealing [6d6]+[8]+[dex mod x 6]+[4d8]+[stunned, knocked prone and disarmed] nova strike [with most of those attacks at advantage]. As far as nova strikes go, its not the greatest, but its still better than what a Monk 8 can spit out, and its certainly enough to ruin a BBEG or priority targets day and knock them out of the fight.

I'd probably go Vuman for +1 Dex and Wisdom, take Mobile at 1st and bump Dex by +2 at 4th.

So its [move 50' without provoking AoO] then make 6 attacks at +7 dealing (4 x [1d6+1d8+6] and 2 x flurry attacks at [1d6+4]), spamming stunning fist till the target is stunned, then spamming disarming strike once he is stunned (made at advantage and auto disarming him thanks to being stunned) then finally knocking him flat on his backside with OHM flurry. After you're done, pick up his [weapon or spell focus] with your free object interaction, and laugh as your DM cries (remembering your target stays stunned until the end of your NEXT turn).

 

[FrogReaver]

I disagree with your ratings.

• A point of Ki is directly comparable to a sup dice.
• Second wind is better than wholeness of body over a 2 short rest AD
• I would take Action surge 1/ short rest over Evasion + 5' move speed any day of the week
• ASI/ Feat is better than a fighting style agreed. That said, the BM fighter also gets extra HP and bigger HD

A Monk 5/ BM 3 is capable of (no magic weapon) launching a six attack burst (action surge + attack action + flurry) dealing [6d6]+[8]+[dex mod x 6]+[4d8]+[stunned, knocked prone and disarmed] nova strike [with most of those attacks at advantage]. As far as nova strikes go, its not the greatest, but its still better than what a Monk 8 can spit out, and its certainly enough to ruin a BBEG or priority targets day and knock them out of the fight.

I'd probably go Vuman for +1 Dex and Wisdom, take Mobile at 1st and bump Dex by +2 at 4th.

So its [move 50' without provoking AoO] then make 6 attacks at +7 dealing (4 x [1d6+1d8+6] and 2 x flurry attacks at [1d6+4]), spamming stunning fist till the target is stunned, then spamming disarming strike once he is stunned (made at advantage and auto disarming him thanks to being stunned) then finally knocking him flat on his backside with OHM flurry. After you're done, pick up his [weapon or spell focus] with your free object interaction, and laugh as your DM cries (remembering your target stays stunned until the end of your NEXT turn).

Action Surge (for 2 more d8+3 attacks once per short rest) > Evasion?????

4 Superiority dice that at most give 1d8 damage and some kind of minor effect > than 3 more chances to stun opponents?????

 

[FrogReaver]

I mean you do realize stun denies the enemy any action while giving your whole party advantage against that enemy (yes even the ranged characters)....

Just trying to figure out if you are undervaluing the part about denying the enemy any actions or whether you are undervaluing the part about giving all your party including ranged characters advantage against the same opponent.