D&D 5E Boy, that escalated quickly...

[I'm A Banana]

All that seems fair enough to me, [MENTION=72670]Raunalyn[/MENTION] , and my experience was totally enjoyable.

I wonder what the difference is between my experience and Hussar's this time around. The better I understand that, the better I'll be at negotiating that line between the reaction being "that was a challenge" and "well, I give up, we're doomed no matter what we do."

 

[Raunalyn]

All that seems fair enough to me, @Raunalyn , and my experience was totally enjoyable.

I wonder what the difference is between my experience and Hussar's this time around. The better I understand that, the better I'll be at negotiating that line between the reaction being "that was a challenge" and "well, I give up, we're doomed no matter what we do."

It could be that I'm misinterpreting his frustration. Admittedly, yes...we had several encounters spread across several sessions where this came to pass. Part of that is the party dynamic...we have party members who tend to run off and cause trouble (I recall a Bard trying to go talk to the giant who runs the sky castle, and the monk and warlock waiting downstairs and kicking over the hornet's nest). Sometimes it's poor planning. Sometimes it's just poor luck.

It could very well be that he's venting. I'm cool with that, totally. I just felt it was important to give my side of the story on this particular session and to add clarity and emphasize that there was more to the scenario that what was given.

Edit because I just remembered something: Regarding the poor planning...I recall a specific portion of the session the other night where the party attempts to crawl over the wall the first time, succeed, and notice that there's a patrol there. They climb back down, and someone in the party asks if maybe they should create a distraction. Instead, the group tries to climb a different wall and gets spotted...

 

[77IM]

Maybe you need to telegraph the stakes more clearly? "The guards around this place are on super high alert for some reason -- almost as if they've gotten reports of enemy agents sneaking into the city. One slip-up and the entire place will be alerted. Are you sure you want to pop over that wall?"

 

[NotActuallyTim]

Huh. I've just realized a pretty good use for the Investigation skill.

'Roll to come up with multiple plausible explanations for why that thing we did just went wrong.'

 

[Hussar]

Part of it is just venting. I'll freely admit that. Like [MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION] says, not every plan succeeds. Fair enough. And, we have had a run of very bad luck.

Part of it too is a different definition of failure. Yup, we got to the manor, so, that was a success. However, now, apparently in doing so, we had alerted the defenders we were coming, so, even that wasn't a complete success. But, it's really more than that. It's the set up of the scenarios where the plans we make realistically never have a chance of success.

Maybe I'm mistaken. I had thought the point of our planning was to get in and get out without being seen. To me, a mass combat with fireballs being thrown and whatnot is a failure. I had thought that the point of the exercise was to avoid all of that.

As a question though, what would have happened had we succeeded in spotting the patrol? It's not like it would have mattered. They were a single move away from us. Combat still would have happened. There's no way we were getting into that house without raising the alarm.

So, [MENTION=2067]I'm A Banana[/MENTION], yes, we managed to wade through hours of combat and come out the other side victorious. True. But, to me, that's a failure. No, that's not quite right. That's a complete and utter waste of any sort of planning that we did. Why bother wanking around for two hours at the table if we're going to fail ten feet into the adventure? AFAIC, that adventure didn't start until we got to the manor. All that other stuff was fun, but, ultimately pretty pointless.

Heck, even getting into the peninsula had nothing to do with any sort of planning and was simply one character leveraging his background. Getting a place to stay had nothing to do with planning - again, background leveraging.

It is awfully frustrating when you look at a scenario and realise that no plan we could have made had any chance of success. There was zero chance we were going to get into that house unseen. None. So, why did we bother pissing about for two hours? Just start in the middle of the fight and be done with it.

I mean, [MENTION=72670]Raunalyn[/MENTION], you talk about the setting not happening in a vacuum. Ok. We were constantly canvassing for information. How about letting us know that they know we're coming? How about letting us know that the manor has enough guards to wipe out a small town? What's wrong with giving specific details?

"well, I give up, we're doomed no matter what we do."

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?478846-Boy-that-escalated-quickly/page10#ixzz41nEoQH8v

It's not a case of being doomed. It's a case of making any plans being a complete waste of time because any plan we make is going to fail. [MENTION=72670]Raunalyn[/MENTION] mentioned the bard going off to talk to the giant while the monk goes and stirs up the hornets nest. Well, there's a perfect example. What did you expect was going to happen when you put the NPC that the player has been looking for for the entire campaign in the next room, and then have the NPC hit the PC with an ultimatum that you know he's not going to accept? Of course it went pear shaped. And, because we had no idea that the NPC was there, there was no way we could plan for it. Even had that not happened, the fact that the NPC that could identify us was in the next room pretty much guaranteed that things were going to hit the windmill in short order.

These are details that might be kind of useful to know and learn during information gathering.

 

[thehobb]

It was, ok, let's jump the wall close to a door so we can get under cover as quickly as possible, wait until the patrols are far away, and ... oops, caught.

Go into the wizard's lair, search things out, touch one chest and poof every encounter area lights up and attacks all at the same time.

Discover information about the flying castle, find a means of entering the castle and, only the next morning discover not only is the one guy who can identify us in the next room, but, the wizard one PC has been searching for for seven levels is two doors down too.

There's no point in doing any information gathering - all it nets is general information and no details. Any plan lasts about thirty seconds until it blows up in our faces.

So, if I'm reading this right, you guys did no scouting and the plan for getting in was to "hop the wall and hope not to get noticed?"

If that's really the extent of preparation and planning you guys make to infiltrate an occupied mansion with guards in a hostile fortified city, I can't say I'm surprised you fail so often.

Likewise you're in a wizard's LAIR, and you didn't check for traps on the chest? You didn't think for one minute that he'd have a magical alarm or something even more nasty on his valuables?

Maybe the DM could be doing a better job of telegraphing things, or feeding you information, but these sound like sloppy plans you're trying to execute.

 

[Hussar]

So, if I'm reading this right, you guys did no scouting and the plan for getting in was to "hop the wall and hope not to get noticed?"

If that's really the extent of preparation and planning you guys make to infiltrate an occupied mansion with guards in a hostile fortified city, I can't say I'm surprised you fail so often.

Oh no, we had the party scouts go over the wall the first time and observe the patrols - looking for gaps, timing the patrol, etc.

Likewise you're in a wizard's LAIR, and you didn't check for traps on the chest? You didn't think for one minute that he'd have a magical alarm or something even more nasty on his valuables?

Maybe the DM could be doing a better job of telegraphing things, or feeding you information, but these sound like sloppy plans you're trying to execute.

I honestly don't remember if he looked for traps or not. Wouldn't matter since the chest wasn't trapped - it had a animated monster inside waiting for the chest to be opened and as soon as that popped out, apparently that triggered some sort of summoning spell which caused several monsters to be summoned in various areas of the home.

 

[thehobb]

Oh no, we had the party scouts go over the wall the first time and observe the patrols - looking for gaps, timing the patrol, etc.

I honestly don't remember if he looked for traps or not. Wouldn't matter since the chest wasn't trapped - it had a animated monster inside waiting for the chest to be opened and as soon as that popped out, apparently that triggered some sort of summoning spell which caused several monsters to be summoned in various areas of the home.

What was the whole plan? If the scouts did their jobs well, the DM probably shouldn't have had you roll anything or should have made a single failure not result in automatic detection but rather something more like "in the distance, you hear a guard say 'did you just hear something?' and another guard says 'Nope, you wanna go check before we raise the alarm?'" Then the party knows they could be in trouble, and have the option of doing something to fix the problem before all hell breaks loose.

As for the chest, that counts as a trap. If the chest was successfully checked, it should have revealed either the monster inside or the summoning trigger. If you didn't check for traps, then that was just plain stupid and you got what you deserved.

 

[Raunalyn]

Part of it is just venting. I'll freely admit that. Like @I'm A Banana says, not every plan succeeds. Fair enough. And, we have had a run of very bad luck.

Part of it too is a different definition of failure. Yup, we got to the manor, so, that was a success. However, now, apparently in doing so, we had alerted the defenders we were coming, so, even that wasn't a complete success. But, it's really more than that. It's the set up of the scenarios where the plans we make realistically never have a chance of success.

Maybe I'm mistaken. I had thought the point of our planning was to get in and get out without being seen. To me, a mass combat with fireballs being thrown and whatnot is a failure. I had thought that the point of the exercise was to avoid all of that.

As a question though, what would have happened had we succeeded in spotting the patrol? It's not like it would have mattered. They were a single move away from us. Combat still would have happened. There's no way we were getting into that house without raising the alarm.

So, @I'm A Banana, yes, we managed to wade through hours of combat and come out the other side victorious. True. But, to me, that's a failure. No, that's not quite right. That's a complete and utter waste of any sort of planning that we did. Why bother wanking around for two hours at the table if we're going to fail ten feet into the adventure? AFAIC, that adventure didn't start until we got to the manor. All that other stuff was fun, but, ultimately pretty pointless.

Heck, even getting into the peninsula had nothing to do with any sort of planning and was simply one character leveraging his background. Getting a place to stay had nothing to do with planning - again, background leveraging.

It is awfully frustrating when you look at a scenario and realise that no plan we could have made had any chance of success. There was zero chance we were going to get into that house unseen. None. So, why did we bother pissing about for two hours? Just start in the middle of the fight and be done with it.

I mean, @Raunalyn, you talk about the setting not happening in a vacuum. Ok. We were constantly canvassing for information. How about letting us know that they know we're coming? How about letting us know that the manor has enough guards to wipe out a small town? What's wrong with giving specific details?



It's not a case of being doomed. It's a case of making any plans being a complete waste of time because any plan we make is going to fail. @Raunalyn mentioned the bard going off to talk to the giant while the monk goes and stirs up the hornets nest. Well, there's a perfect example. What did you expect was going to happen when you put the NPC that the player has been looking for for the entire campaign in the next room, and then have the NPC hit the PC with an ultimatum that you know he's not going to accept? Of course it went pear shaped. And, because we had no idea that the NPC was there, there was no way we could plan for it. Even had that not happened, the fact that the NPC that could identify us was in the next room pretty much guaranteed that things were going to hit the windmill in short order.

These are details that might be kind of useful to know and learn during information gathering.

Ok, then why didn't you follow the suggestion of the Sorcerer and cause a distraction? Do you think the scenario would have played out differently? Was that the only possible scenario?

Your comment about getting past the gate, I think, was a bit on the unfair side...this entire *scenario* is part of the adventure. Did you have a chance of failing to get past the guards at the gate and cause a big fight? Yes you did. You all got together, did some good role-playing, and made a good plan to get past that encounter. I rewarded you accordingly.

Did you have a chance of entering the manor without anyone knowing? Yes.

Edit to clarify: Getting to the manor did not alert the guards that you were coming...the several days you spent in the city digging up information did. That's why they had sketches of everyone in your group.

How would a noble who only cares about partying and the next wench on the list know what the garrison at the manor would look like? Did you bother to investigate and see if they knew you were coming? The guards you talked to at the party...they were bodyguards for nobles and probably only knew a little bit more than the nobles did. You mentioned that you scouted the patrols...did you send someone ahead to scout the manor, checking for guards? No, you climbed one wall and looked. When someone in the party asked to see if they could time the guards' patrols, you only looked at one side of the manor and didn't send someone to see what was going on elsewhere. None of you even went to the front of the manor to scout. You looked at one side, decided that wasn't the place to go. To me, that was poor planning, and the result was that you got caught.

It's not like I'm going to completely overwhelm you with monsters that can kill you with one hit...I planned for the possibility that you would encounter these groups. Just like I planned for the possibility that you would have tried to fight through the gate to get to the peninsula. Effective planning got you past one scenario. Poor planning for the other scenario got you caught.

That's not me setting you up for failure, @Hussar. I'm sorry if that's the way you feel about it...

 

[Hussar]

Oh, I dunno - we canvassed information multiple times - how about a hint? "Hey, my cousin works there, she knows this..." or "Well, I don't know, but, if you talk to Schmengi, he might know..." that sort of thing?

Yup, we made a mistake in assuming that guard patrols would patrol in circles. Did you tell us that the guards were only patrolling one side of the manor? Hrm, we go over the wall (1 check to see if we're spotted) get exactly zero time to react - it was basically place the minis on the board and make a second check - to spot the patrol. Why not do a tiny bit of assumption on your part to presume that we're being careful? Considering the situation, why not mention, "Hey, as you poke your nose over the wall to climb, you spot another patrol on the other side of the building"?

But, yup, we didn't say it, so, it didn't happen.

Like I said, it's pixel bitching. If we don't detail every single step, and every single step isn't perfect, we have zero chance of success. The first mistake we make is a total failure.

Edit to clarify: Getting to the manor did not alert the guards that you were coming...the several days you spent in the city digging up information did. That's why they had sketches of everyone in your group.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?478846-Boy-that-escalated-quickly/page10#ixzz41npt63mk

So, even attempting to plan was a failure in the first place. The only way we could gather information at all was to ask around. And the very act of asking around actually increased the difficulty of the scenario. So, we spent several days digging for information, which revealed nothing of detail, only vague generalities, and this ramped up the difficulty of the scenario? And you wonder why I'm a bit frustrated?

What was the point? Why not just start the scenario off at the front gate and roll initiative. That was going to be the result pretty much no matter what we did.