D&D 5E what is it about 2nd ed that we miss?

[FormerlyHemlock]

In another thread someone said:



And well, there is some truth to that. I realized I missed 2nd ed too. One of the thing that is making me happy about 5e is that it feels to me like a modernized version of 2e. But I haven't played it yet and I assume that cbwjm has. I'm also sure he's not the only one.

So... what is it?

It can't be the AC system. "positive/additive" AC is just plain superior to thac0, end of story.

It can't be the absence of feats, because 5e can be played without them.

It can't be the skill resolution system because let's face it, 5e is simpler and better.

It can't be the magical items, because 5e brings the old school back and the atunement rule is superior - but if you don't like it very easy to remove.

It can't be the ability scores because 5e is much more regular and "fairer" - a 13 is worth something now.

So what is it? Is it the multi-classing? Bounded accuracy? The absence of warlocks, barbarians etc? The saving throws? The less HP? The initiative system? Spell disruption? No cantrips? what?

Here's my list off the top of my head:

(1) % Magic Resistance. 5E magic resistance is weak and mostly pointless.
(2) Monsters with actual social organizations, motivations, non-combat stats, and ecologies. 5E won't even tell you what a given monster eats. I can cannibalize my 2nd edition books for that info, but why should I have to?
(3) The rate and incentives of the XP system. (5E advancement is too fast and combat-oriented. Fixable, though, via houserules.)
(4) Spell research and magic item creation rules. (This is partly nostalgia though since the official system was less well-fleshed out than the house rules I'm probably remembering. The 5E skill system is a pretty decent mechanic to build spell research around though.)
(5) Priestly spell spheres (waaaay better than 5E specialty priests). I miss the esoteric spheres of Numbers and Mind particularly. I don't think you can get the same flavor out of 5E clerics with their measly two spells per spell level of customization, plus some random powers. For example, in 5E it's impossible to have a cleric of Ptah who can't cast Raise Dead or Spirit Guardians but can create wormholes or instantly estimate the number of gold coins in a pile.
(6) Reaction rolls. You can have noncombat encounters in 5E, but the DMG encounter building system (and associated Internet rhetoric) pushes you toward a certain amount of inflexibility: bypassing a "combat encounter" via negotiation throws off "class balance" and the resting cadence. Again, that's fixable just by ignoring bad advice and inventing your own system of reaction rolls, but the fact that I'm re-inventing 2nd edition reaction rolls is telling.
(7) Flying maneuverability classes. 5E flight is simultaneously too slow and too acrobatic to feel right to me.
(8) I miss the power of 2nd edition spells like Teleport, Magic Jar, Dominate, Stoneskin, etc. 5E magic is weak by design, and while I respect that as a design decision, I mourn it at the same time.
(9) I miss 2nd edition fighters and the things they could do with weapons and called shots. 5E has some pretty decent substitutes though via Shove, Grapple, and DMG option Disarm, but I still miss them.
(10) Ability scores. Encumbrance rules are the big one (the way carrying capacity scales in 5E just doesn't fit any plausible interpretation of what Str is supposed to mean) but I also miss the way Int affected your ability to pick the best spells and the way Charisma interacted with your henchmen and followers. Speaking of which:
(11) Resurrection survival rolls and system shock and spheres of annihilation and permanent death. My perspective on this one is probably different now because I'm a DM--as a player I hate spheres of annihilation and permanent death--but as a DM, a gameworld is easier to build and more interesting when a 9th level spell like Power Word Kill isn't reversible by a simple 3rd level Revivify.

#2, #3, and #6 are basically "5E is too combat-oriented", while #4 and #5 are basically "spellcasting is too simplistic."

Oh, and one more thing: I would miss AD&D-style initiative if I weren't using it in 5E already. I can't stand cyclic initiative and the way it segments combat and noncombat actions into completely different modes of play. With AD&D-style initiative, being the first person to snatch the last piece of cake and being able to stab the orc before he shakes his buddy awake obey the exact same rules.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I strongly disagree. 1e and 2e magic items are far better than anything put out since. They were more fun. They were rarer, which gave them more meaning. They were more powerful, which was balanced by the rarity.

So true. I was browsing my copy of the Tome of Magic the other day and was blown away how creative and outside-the-box the items were compared to what I've become used to in 5E. Here's five of them in a row:

Puchezma's Powder of Edible Objects: An inveterate traveler who was notoriously cheap, Puchezma could never bring himself to spend money on decent provisions or hire a quality chef for his long wilderness excursions. In his efforts to create a seasoning that would make the bland dishes of his second-rate cooks more palatable, Puchezma stumbled on a formula for the powder of edible objects.

This powder, which resembles normal salt, causes any normally indigestible material to be come edible, nutritious food. The material must be nonliving and nonmagical, and must be in a form the consumer can swallow; for instance, dirt and cotton cloth are acceptable (the diner could chew up and swallow these materials), but large stones and planks of hard wood are not (these objects would have to be broken up into small pieces before they could be swallowed). All poisonous and otherwise harmful properties (such as sharp edges) are negated by the powder. One pinch of powder of edible objects is sufficient to treat one cubic foot of material. The powder is normally found in small bags containing 10 to 100 pinches.

Quill of Law: This magical pen is used by despots and good rulers alike to ensure that their laws and proclamations are obeyed. Anyone reading a posted proclamation or law that was written with the pen must obey the law, regardless of whether it is a good law.

This effect applies only to persons who actually see the written message. If a person knows about the law but has not read a notice written with the quill, he still has the option to obey or break the law. Once he has read it, however, he must obey it.

The magical effect is limited in that only the three most recent laws written with the quill maintain this power. Laws written prior to the most recent three can still be the law, but citizens are not compelled to obey them.

Creatures with 15 or greater Intelligence and 12 or more Hit Dice or levels are entitled to a saving throw vs. spell when viewing the proclamation. If the saving throw is successful, the effect is negated and the person is left to his own moral decisions.

Reglar's Gloves of Freedom: These gloves appear to be thick, leather, combat gloves. Silvered pearls are sewn along the stitching.

A character under the influence of a charm spell or similar enchantment can be freed of the enchantment by shaking hands with the wearer of the gloves. This item frees only characters who are enchanted against their will. Those who have willingly submitted to a charm (such as a quest) are not affected by the gloves. The former victim retains all memories of his enchantment.

The gloves do not protect or release the wearer from such spells.

Robe of Repetition: This ordinary-looking robe radiates strong alteration magic if magic is detected. The wearer of this robe acquires a unique and powerful augmentation to his magic. After casting a spell, there is a percentage chance that a mnemonic/harmonic effect occurs so that the magical energies liberated in spellcasting are amplified and retained briefly. The wizard is then able to cast the same spell a second time. This must be done on the succeeding round or the bonus spell is lost.

Once the spell has been cast a second time, the energy is completely liberated. There is no possibility of a third casting. In all cases, the spell is lost from the wizard's memory until the wizard memorizes it again.

The chance of a spell being available for a second casting varies according to spell level:

1st Level 50%
2nd Level 40%
3rd Level 30%
4th Level 20%
5th Level 10%

Energy from spells of 6th level and above are not retained within the robe's magical weave. Furthermore, a maximum of 24 spell levels per day can be reused with the benefit of this robe. If the wizard opts not to use a spell which is made available for a second use, this counts toward the maximum limit.

If a wizard removes the robe, spells cast while the robe is off do not count toward the spell limit. For example, if a wizard casts 15 spell levels that count against the robe's daily limit and he then removes the robe, subsequent spells do not count against the robe's limit. If the wizard then puts on the robe during the same day and casts more spells, the robe retains the 15 spell levels that counted against it and all spells cast subsequently also count against the robe.

Only one wizard may use the robe's magic in a single day; if a second wizard puts on the robe, it does not function.

Saddle of Flying: This saddle resembles a normal leather saddle with a small, silver buckle near the pommel. When the saddle is secured to a horse or any other nonmagical mount and the silver buckle is fastened, the mount sprouts wings and acquires the ability to fly at its normal movement rate (Maneuverability Class D). The flying mount can carry its normal encumbrance.

The saddle of flying functions for only one hour per day. When the silver buckle is unfastened or the duration expires, the wings disappear and all flying ability is immediately lost, regardless of whether the mount is airborne or on the ground.

Of the five items on page 143, three of them (Quill of Law, Edible Objects powder, Robe of Repetition) strike me as more creative and interesting than anything in the 5E DMG. One of those (Quill of Law) pleased me enough that I immediately inserted it into my current campaign to solve a problem I had with encounter pacing. I loooove 2nd edition/OSR magic items.

 

[pemerton]

Yes - when I posted I was thinking specifically of my son's Classic D&D PC Count William - he's been playing him around 2 years, from MU 4 to current MU 11, starting when he was 6 years old. With 5e D&D he has to play a monster or one of the simpler martial classes.

What makes AD&D spell-casters easier in this respect?

 

[Ancalagon]

I have to say about the good 2nd ed material - a lot of it easily "stolen" to 5e. The great fluff in the 2nd ed campaign settings and the monster manual is easily used, and a lot of these cool magical items are also easily imported.

 

[Maxperson]

So true. I was browsing my copy of the Tome of Magic the other day and was blown away how creative and outside-the-box the items were compared to what I've become used to in 5E. Here's five of them in a row:

Of the five items on page 143, three of them (Quill of Law, Edible Objects powder, Robe of Repetition) strike me as more creative and interesting than anything in the 5E DMG. One of those (Quill of Law) pleased me enough that I immediately inserted it into my current campaign to solve a problem I had with encounter pacing. I loooove 2nd edition/OSR magic items.

I have two sets of the Encyclopedia Magica. It's the most amazing resource and I still use it to this day.

 

[Maxperson]

double post

 

[Ancalagon]

@: Maxperson: You have two copies so you had to make two posts?

I've been thinking about this more and some of you have highlighted something important. In 2nd ed, there was little "character optimization". Some people blamed 3e for this, but it is not true - it started with the skills and powers books (in other words, 2.5 edition...) and perhaps a bit even sooner with the class splatbook. Certainly it became in full swing in 3e, with class, prestige class, feats and magical items combo designed around synergies and maximum combat performance.

Character design thus became a mini-game in and of itself, and to "prove" you had won this game well you had to test it inside the real game... leading to odd situations where a player could be more motivated to show-off his great build vs actually roleplaying the character.

Unfortunately, from reading the threads here this tendency to character optimize is still alive and well in 5e...

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Character design thus became a mini-game in and of itself, and to "prove" you had won this game well you had to test it inside the real game... leading to odd situations where a player could be more motivated to show-off his great build vs actually roleplaying the character.

I'd almost forgotten about it, but yes, this is definitely a huge difference between core 2E and everything that came after it. This is when you started getting players who didn't care when their characters died, because it was an opportunity to go through (advanced) character gen again!

You can almost excise the character optimization mini-game, if you play 5E without feats, but in order to really grab the old-style feel you should also get rid of about a third of the sub-classes and heavily restrict class/race combinations.

 

[Henry]

In part, it's the campaign settings. Oh, so many lovely campaign settings.

But for the most part? I believe that, for many of us--and I say "many," not "all"--it's purely about who we were at the time, where we were in life, the wonder we got from early editions that we don't from later because of that stupid "getting familiar with the tropes" and "growing up" garbage that we all got suckered into.

Agreed - the stuff I miss most about my 2n edition games is the friends I knew back then (I moved away, plus some have left gaming, some have started 4 and 5 child families, etc.) and I miss the sheer lazy amount of time prepping an running games for 20 hours a week, before jobs, families, and responsibilites.

Heck, I think that's the real appeal of Conventions for most people - the leeway to act like you're 21 again.

 

[Psikerlord#]

The best things about 2e, better than 5e imo are:

1) Raising the dead had real drawbacks/chance of failure. Dying should mean something.
2) Magic was rare (no cantrips) but stronger. This is a better balance for me than 5e's common but weaker magic. This extended to magic items, too. 5e items are pretty good, though.
3) Much more dangerous. At zero hp, from memory, you were out of any further fights until you had a sleep. That was big. At -10 you were dead. No whack a mole issue.
4) Slow healing meant every fight had meaning/lasting effects. No overnight heal ups.
5) Random monsters with random treasure. You might fluke a fight with a giant at low level, but if you win, there will be some awesome treasure. No concept of "balanced encounters for your party level" - just adventures for "level 2-4" etc. It felt more realistic/less "gamey"
6) Roll equal to or under stat non-weapon proficiencies. Add in modifiers - including for example advantage - and this is vastly superior to arbitrary DCs in my view. Every stat point matters, 13 Int is very different to an 8 Int for example using such a system. In 5e the difference between 8 and 13 is minimal.
7) So many awesome settings/fluff material.
8) The adventures were more sandbox, which is definitely my preferred playstyle.