D&D 5E Reactions

[AaronOfBarbaria]

But if you apply the same rule to the case of a Rogue being reduced to 0 hit points by a hit, won't it also imply that he can't use Uncanny Dodge?

No.

Uncanny Dodge clearly happens before hit points are reduced by damage taken, as otherwise it would not say it reduces damage but that it regains lost hit points.

Being reduced to 0 hit points is clearly a thing that happens after hit points are reduced by damage taken because that is math and math always has an order of operations.

Unless you are talking about a theoretical attack which has an effect of "If you are hit by this attack, you are reduced to 0 hit points", it is not that a character is reduced to 0 hit points by a hit; it's that a character is dealt damage by a hit - and a separate, inherently subsequent, event that the character is made unconscious by being at 0 hit points.

 

[Ovinomancer]

But the reduction in hit points is part of "the hit". And we've been told that the hit takes effect before uncanny dodge does. So the reduction in hit points should take effect before uncanny dodge gets to fire. Except when it doesn't.

There is a bit of an ambiguity here.

There's no inconsistency unless you're insisting on a specific timing, a timing that doesn't exist in the rules. Uncanny Dodge does exactly what it says on the tin, no more or less. When you get hit, you reduce damage. Since Uncanny Dodge has no language regarding timing, it goes after the hit. This means that the effect's of the hit go first. Now, Uncanny Dodge does have specific language regarding damage from the hit, so it modifies the damage created by th e hit before it's applied: UD has specific wording on timing there -- it goes after the hit but before damage is applied. There's no issue with damaged caused unconsciousness because UD's timing is clear that it intercepts th he damage after its generated but before it's applied.

Since it goes after the hit but before damage is applied, Shocking Grasp shorts out Uncanny Dodge because the rider effect is applied before UD goes off, preventing UD.

5e works (for the most part) if you just do what it says. I came to this realization during the dispel thread. You don't need a fixed timing for UD and Shocking Grasp is you just do what they say and apply the reactions usually after their trigger rule for the occasional timing issue.

 

[Uller]

5e works (for the most part) if you just do what it says. I came to this realization during the dispel thread. You don't need a fixed timing for UD and Shocking Grasp is you just do what they say and apply the reactions usually after their trigger rule for the occasional timing issue.

Right. And what it says is: on a hit...reactions that trigger on a hit happen...then effects of the hit happen.

It's easy. It makes sense in all cases. There are no wierd cases such as "make a save to see if the ghoul paralyzed you before you can dodge the attack."

You are confusing rule mechanics and narrative. The rule is reactions happen after their trigger. The trigger is the mechanical hit: a d20 is rolled, bonus is applied, comparison to AC is made...that is a hit. The reaction happens immediately after the hit. If it said when you are damaged by an attack...then the trigger would happen after the damage and effects are applied.

 

[seebs]

There's no inconsistency unless you're insisting on a specific timing, a timing that doesn't exist in the rules.

Yeah. And the thing is, if you just go by what's said, there's an ambiguity. If you assume that the ambiguity is resolved by a general principle, then there is a specific timing somewhere even though it wasn't specified... But things are inconsistent. Otherwise it's just plain weird. Which is actually the intended state, I think; instead of trying to resolve the question, the rules leave it open and assume the GM will make a call.

EDIT: For instance, are you allowed to wait until the damage is rolled to decide whether to use uncanny dodge, or do you have to decide the moment you know whether or not you were hit?

 

[Ovinomancer]

Right. And what it says is: on a hit...reactions that trigger on a hit happen...then effects of the hit happen.

Um, no, it says that nowhere. What it does say is that if there's confusion, the reaction happens after the trigger. Since the trigger is a hit, and that hit carries with it a 'no reactions' rider if it's Shocking Grasp, Uncanny Dodge can't go after that trigger because the trigger disallows it. In most cases, though, there isn't a rider that prevents reactions that associated with the hit, so it's not problem.

It's easy. It makes sense in all cases. There are no wierd cases such as "make a save to see if the ghoul paralyzed you before you can dodge the attack."

So's the way it's written. You get to use UD unless there's a specific event associated with the hit. Save for paralysis isn't directly associated with the hit -- you're not paralyzed until you fail the save, so you can UD on a ghoul hit. Or not, up to you, really.

You are confusing rule mechanics and narrative. The rule is reactions happen after their trigger. The trigger is the mechanical hit: a d20 is rolled, bonus is applied, comparison to AC is made...that is a hit. The reaction happens immediately after the hit. If it said when you are damaged by an attack...then the trigger would happen after the damage and effects are applied.

I'm very much not confusing mechanics and narrative. I'm looking only at mechanics. It's the narrative guys that are having the issue with UD acting when it does and coming up with stories to show why you have to start dodging before the hit. I have no story, no narrative, to explain my stance. It's really odd that you would say that I need narrative to defend something I've offered no narrative to defend.

As for the rule, yes, you're right, but Shocking Grasp prevents reactions on a hit. If the hit comes first, the that rider also comes first. Normally, damage comes first as well (and will, for almost all other reactions, shield being a notable exception) but UD has specific language dealing with damage, and damage only, so it modifies the damage before it's applied. The damage from the hit is generated first, though, and then halved by the UD reaction before it's applied. Under that same paradigm, if the hit is shocking grasp, the damage and the rider are generated first as part of the hit, and the UD is prevented from reacted due to the rider. The damage isn't altered and is applied as normal.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Yeah. And the thing is, if you just go by what's said, there's an ambiguity. If you assume that the ambiguity is resolved by a general principle, then there is a specific timing somewhere even though it wasn't specified... But things are inconsistent. Otherwise it's just plain weird. Which is actually the intended state, I think; instead of trying to resolve the question, the rules leave it open and assume the GM will make a call.

Absolutely. I'm stating my stance. I've been clear that you're welcome and encouraged to rule however works for you. I'm just defending my stance, not insisting it's the only right way.

EDIT: For instance, are you allowed to wait until the damage is rolled to decide whether to use uncanny dodge, or do you have to decide the moment you know whether or not you were hit?

I have zero issues with choosing after damage is rolled. It doesn't make the reaction the least overpowered. You could go a different way, though.

 

[TheWriterFantastic™]

Um, no, it says that nowhere. What it does say is that if there's confusion, the reaction happens after the trigger. Since the trigger is a hit, and that hit carries with it a 'no reactions' rider if it's Shocking Grasp, Uncanny Dodge can't go after that trigger because the trigger disallows it. In most cases, though, there isn't a rider that prevents reactions that associated with the hit, so it's not problem.


So's the way it's written. You get to use UD unless there's a specific event associated with the hit. Save for paralysis isn't directly associated with the hit -- you're not paralyzed until you fail the save, so you can UD on a ghoul hit. Or not, up to you, really.

Which is it? Ghoul paralysis, in fact, is a direct effect of the hit that occurs simultaneous to the damage. Though a saving throw is involved, the paralysis doesn't have a delayed onset and is a direct result of the hit.

On one hand, you say Shocking Grasp's effect, reaction prevention, occurs at the same time as the damage, with no time to interfere after confirming the hit, but the ghoul's attack and resultant paralysis can be interrupted because of the allowed save, in spite of the potential paralysis -- though both occur using the same sequence: on a hit, apply damage and/or effect.

There's no consistency -- as by the ruling you apply for Shocking Grasp, damage and effect apply before a reaction can occur, yet with the ghoul, the effect somehow occurs after, even though the attack description clearly indicates it occurs in the same manner as Shocking Grasp -- unless, the table treats damage and effect as a separate, but instantaneous, step in the sequence of resolving an attack, as described in both the Basic Rules and PHB, and consistently argued throughout the thread.

The described sequence is in the rules -- just not bullet-pointed as such.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Which is it? Ghoul paralysis, in fact, is a direct effect of the hit that occurs simultaneous to the damage. Though a saving throw is involved, the paralysis doesn't have a delayed onset and is a direct result of the hit.

On one hand, you say Shocking Grasp's effect, reaction prevention, occurs at the same time as the damage, with no time to interfere after confirming the hit, but the ghoul's attack and resultant paralysis can be interrupted because of the allowed save, in spite of the potential paralysis -- though both occur using the same sequence: on a hit, apply damage and/or effect.

There's no consistency -- as by the ruling you apply for Shocking Grasp, damage and effect apply before a reaction can occur, yet with the ghoul, the effect somehow occurs after, even though the attack description clearly indicates it occurs in the same manner as Shocking Grasp -- unless, the table treats damage and effect as a separate, but instantaneous, step in the sequence of resolving an attack, as described in both the Basic Rules and PHB, and consistently argued throughout the thread.

The described sequence is in the rules -- just not bullet-pointed as such.

Generally, and I may be weird here, but an extra die roll is enough of a break for me. Obviously, you disagree. That's great! Just have your ghoul attacks not allow the use of Uncanny Dodge on a failed save. Problem solved. Happy gaming!

 

[TheWriterFantastic™]

Generally, and I may be weird here, but an extra die roll is enough of a break for me. Obviously, you disagree. That's great! Just have your ghoul attacks not allow the use of Uncanny Dodge on a failed save. Problem solved. Happy gaming!

But isn't a damage roll an extra die roll, too? Again, by that logic, there should be a break in the sequence before damage is rolled and any simultaneous or subsequent effects are applied -- so Shocking Grasp, on a hit, would have a break before damage is rolled and the reaction negation is applied, allowing the reaction to occur in that break, prior to the negation.

 

[Dausuul]

because that is math and math always has an order of operations.

Order of operations has nothing to do with this. There is one operation taking place - subtraction. The operation has either been performed or it hasn't.

Um, no, it says that nowhere. What it does say is that if there's confusion, the reaction happens after the trigger. Since the trigger is a hit, and that hit carries with it a 'no reactions' rider if it's Shocking Grasp, Uncanny Dodge can't go after that trigger because the trigger disallows it.

The hit also carries a "deals 1d8 damage" rider. Both damage and reaction denial are effects of the hit.

There are two ways you can look at shocking grasp:

1. Being hit and applying the effects of the hit are two distinct events. In this case, UD does not interrupt the trigger (being hit) but happens after it, before effects are applied. Since effects have not yet been applied, reaction denial hasn't happened and UD can be used.

2. Being hit and applying the effects of the hit are a single event. In this case, per the DMG, UD must interrupt the triggering event, since the event includes damage and UD reduces that damage. Since reaction denial is part of the same event, reaction denial is also being interrupted, and UD can be used.

What you're proposing is that (being hit and applying the non-damage effects of the hit) constitutes one event, and (applying the damage of the hit) is another event. That's a bizarre view with no basis in the rules that I can see. Either the hit is a distinct event from its effects, or it isn't; and either way you can use UD.