Harassment in gaming

JohnnyDavids13

First Post
I can agree with alot of stuff here. Victims aren't the problem. If someone is being harassed something needs to be done. You don't just throw people to the wolves or rather leave them in the pack of wolves just because it doesn't matter to you. If you can help in some way you should.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Lord Twig

Adventurer
But, all of this may very well be true, but is 100% beside the point.

It doesn't really matter one whit that the harassers in this case are mostly white men. That's not the important part of the sentence.

Then the whole "White Male Terrorist" should never have been mentioned. It was though, so I figured I would address it.

The important part of the sentence is that women are being harassed in gaming,

Yes, they are. Agree so far...

and the bystanders, who are predominantly white men, are doing virtually nothing about it.

And here you are resorting to hyperbole. I would agree that not enough is being done, but I don't think it is fair to say that virtually nothing is being done. But now we are arguing a matter of degrees. We are both saying more needs to be done, the only question is how much still needs to be done.

And when ideas are proposed to do something about it, there's a large degree of push back because it isn't "fair".

There is not a push back on everything that is suggested, just the suggestions that go too far. Now I realize that "too far" is subjective, but you can still agree on some of the things that "are not far enough" to begin with and then push for more after that.

AFAIC, race isn't really an issue here, other than I do think it does point rather strongly towards the idea that the RPG community is nowhere near as welcoming as it likes to think it is.

That does not necessarily follow. I introduced my wife to RPGs, which I love, and she didn't really get into it. She is more than willing to play Magic the Gathering with the same group of guys, however. So it isn't the people in her case. It could just be that RPGs aren't as enticing to women as men. Women, as a group, are attracted to different types of video games than men are, so the same is probably true for table top games. With plenty of exceptions on both sides of course.

Between the idea of "investigate the claims to prove things" and the victim blaming, it's not really surprising that many women would not feel comfortable being able to make complaints.

I see "investigating claims" far distant from "victim blaming". In my opinion they are farther apart than "accepting any claim on blind faith" and "investigating claims". If you truly want something done whenever a claim is made then investigating the claim is doing something. It makes the accused aware that he (it's most likely a he) is under scrutiny and it could be made clear to him that harassing behavior is not acceptable.

It also opens the door to clearing up an honest misunderstanding. It happened to me once where something I said was taken differently than I intended. When pointed out I realized the misunderstanding, apologized profusely and sincerely and we had a laugh about it afterwards. No harm no foul.

"Oh, just go somewhere else" is 100% the WRONG answer.

Agreed. And I'll assume that this is aimed at a post other than mine, even though mine was the one quoted, because I sure never said anything like that.
 
Last edited:

Lord Twig

Adventurer
I wouldn't draw all of those conclusions. The language in this thread is decidedly political and very clearly representing a group that has spent the last year and pursuing those guilty of wrongthink online and off, including attempting to have them fired from their jobs. It's very likely that there's more than a few people like myself who've avoided direct discussion of the statements you make above out of fear of reprisal if anything is determined to be wrongthink.

It's impossible to have a conversation on this topic because of political activism and the last year and a half of events related to it, so it's impossible to draw any conclusions.

There are certainly those that go to far. We will see if my attempts at conversation draw reprisals. I'm not going to blame one side or the other. To me it looks like both sides could reel it in a bit.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
The language in this thread is decidedly political and very clearly representing a group that has spent the last year and pursuing those guilty of wrongthink online and off, including attempting to have them fired from their jobs.
Hmmm...I'm not sure I agree.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I wouldn't draw all of those conclusions. The language in this thread is decidedly political and very clearly representing a group that has spent the last year and pursuing those guilty of wrongthink online and off, including attempting to have them fired from their jobs.

Drop the ad-hominems, please. If you can't debate a subject without resorting to claiming those who disagree with you are part of a conspiracy, go find something else to talk about.
 

Hussar

Legend
Lord Twig said:
That does not necessarily follow. I introduced my wife to RPGs, which I love, and she didn't really get into it. She is more than willing to play Magic the Gathering with the same group of guys, however. So it isn't the people in her case. It could just be that RPGs aren't as enticing to women as men. Women, as a group, are attracted to different types of video games than men are, so the same is probably true for table top games. With plenty of exceptions on both sides of course.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?482661-Harassment-in-gaming/page52#ixzz46W2x5BHH

Oh, there's obviously more than one reason for the demographics that we have. I remember one interview ((and I'm remembering right now who the interview was with - someone at WotC before Hasbro, talking about the market research they did)) talking about how D&D is largely a suburbia phenomenon. Those in the city have other options which drops D&D down the list, and those in rural areas usually lack the population numbers to make getting a group together easy. So, D&D sells the most in suburbia. Which, in America, tends to be predominantly white. It's not a case of deliberately excluding anyone, just part of the way things shake out.

But, that doesn't really explain why women aren't into it. Because if you step away from D&D and into things like Vampire, you see a lot more women participating. And, it's not like its a geek culture thing either. There's all sorts of nerd pursuits where the demographics are not so lopsided. I mean, if you go into MMO gamers in the US, from a fairly quick Google search, the split is about 60:40.

And, at the end of the day, let's be honest, harassment isn't helping the issue. So, when the majority of people doing the harassment belong to one group, and the majority of people not doing anything to fix the problem belong to one group, I can kinda understand the frustration behind labeling that group "terrorists".

Now, is it accurate? Probably not. It's click bait. Sure. Whatever. I personally don't really give a toss about it. The point is that we need to be doing more to prevent harassment in gaming. Complaining about the form of the message isn't dealing with that problem. Complaining that the article in the OP calls you a nasty name, well, it got your attention didn't it? Debates over "well, I'm not a terrorist" is just obfuscating the issue.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
I've been reading through this thread and a previous one and there seems to be a lot of talking past one another.

Unfortunately, that's quite common in online discussions.


By and large it seems that virtually everyone agrees on the important parts. Harassment does happen, it should not be tolerated, the targets are disproportionately female and the perpetrators are mostly white men. These seem like uncontroversial facts.

I'd say that's probably an accurate assessment of the most fundamental facts that virtually everyone in the thread agrees on.


Now there are a few points that explains some of those facts. One, harassment happens, unfortunately, just about everywhere, so RPG gatherings would be no exception. And Two, white men are a majority of RPG players and females are a minority. So not only are there more potential harassers among white men, but also they have a position of strength as a majority group. Likewise, women, as a minority group are easier targets.

I think that adequately explains the basics of environments that either foster or harbor harassment: one group has more influence than another, often because of majority status. The members of the more influential group feel they can behave however they wish because they are part of the more influential group, and they feel the rest of the group would support, or at least not admonish, their behavior.


Of course other than the demographic of RPG players none of this has anything to do specifically with role-playing games. The same could be said of sporting events, business conventions or political rallies.

Note: I bolded the part I wish to address.

I'm going to have to disagree that this has nothing specific to do with RPGs. There are a few RPG specific factors, particularly related to fantasy RPGs like D&D, that would seem to me to be relevant.

1) Most fantasy RPGs take place in a pseudo-medieval setting.

There's nothing wrong with this being the default for most frpgs. Indeed, some frpg settings even make a point of mentioning that there is a greater level of gender equality in those settings than would have existed in our medieval era. Thank God for that: the medieval era (to my understanding) was not particularly kind, especially to women.

This can really become an issue when DMs try to inject a more authentic feel to the setting by adopting more of the aspects of reality and of our medieval world.


2) Sexualization of women in gaming art.
Note: This is not going to be a rant about art in gaming. However, I am going to address it because it is a relevant topic.

All art is subjective, and I like some of the pin-up style art (regardless of the gender involved). However, for a long time there was a trend in gaming art to sexualize the females presented therein. There are many examples of this:

(a) The overused chain-mail bikini. This is fine as part of a pin-up style picture, but we really shouldn't pretend that it provides any real protection when men wearing chain armor are draped in entire shirts of the stuff. Also related to this is female armor that covers more than the CMB but fails to cover as much as the equivalent armor does on a man. Depending on how it's done, I can see this as being more forgivable outside of the pin-up style than the CMB is, but it does establish that even female armor is intended at least as much to make a woman look good as it is to protect her.

(b) The dress of casters. Most female casters seemed like they were wearing what amounts to the slave Leia outfit, with some see-through cloth hanging from it. By contrast, male casters wore robes raging from the simple robes we see Gandalf wearing in the first LoTR film to elaborate robes befitting royalty, or the ceremonial garb of priests, bishops, popes, etc.

I could go on, but I think those two example make my point about the art (and I don't want to belabor the art issue any more than is necessary). The main point of the art example is that the art already, on a subconscious level, sets women in the gaming sphere up to be seen as sexual objects.


3) The virgin and the harlot.

A lot of fantasy has a kind of two-faced view of women, with all women either being frail virginal flowers in need of protecting, or being harlots or seductresses. This also potentially sets up a subconscious expectation that I've seen time and time again in gaming, mostly expressed in the belief/assumption that a female character (PC or NPC) who expresses any interest in sexuality is a harlot and not just a rounded out person.


The disagreement really comes in when people try to characterize the problem as either a systemic problem of RPG gatherings or that it is less common at RPG gatherings than any other gathering. I don't think we have any conclusive evidence either way. A study or survey would probably be a good idea if GenCon or some other large gaming convention would do it.

I would like to see more studies/surveys myself, if for no other reason than it calls attention to the existence of the problem (regardless of how widespread one may think that it is or is not).

That said, this is not just about the problem existing in the RPG community, but in the overall gaming community (of which rpg players are part), and female cosplayers are often faced with significant sexual assault and battery.


Of course I also believe that all gatherings dominated by males (of any race) needs to do better at respecting women. It is not a gamer problem or a RPG gamer problem, it is a societal problem that needs to be addressed.

I agree with that.
 

Rygar

Explorer
Drop the ad-hominems, please. If you can't debate a subject without resorting to claiming those who disagree with you are part of a conspiracy, go find something else to talk about.

The very first post in the thread links to an article on Tumblr, a site very well known for being an extremely political site to the point that Reddit has a sub-reddit dedicated to picking it apart, and said article declares white males are terrorists. The entire thread is an ad hominem attack upon an entire demographic.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Dude...
polar-bear-facepalm.jpg
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
The very first post in the thread links to an article on Tumblr, a site very well known for being an extremely political site to the point that Reddit has a sub-reddit dedicated to picking it apart, and said article declares white males are terrorists. The entire thread is an ad hominem attack upon an entire demographic.

The article doesn't declare that all white men are terrorists. The article declares that gaming has a problem with terrorism being perpetrated by white males. I personally feel that the article used inflammatory language to get noticed, so that its contents would be talked about. I also feel that the inflammatory language has hurt the discussions that it spawned, but it has nevertheless incited people to talk (many of us civilly) about harassment in gaming.

Also, I reject your notion that the entire thread is an ad hominem attack. I have been a frequent contributor to both of the harassment threads, please show me where I have made an ad hominem attack. I know that I can personally point out places where I have described making personal attacks as having no value in furthering the discussion about harassment in gaming. There have likewise been several other posters who have posted civil thoughts and/or reactions to both the article linked to in the OP, and to the responses of other posters.
 

Remove ads

Top