Harassment in gaming

[Umbran]

A High Court judge overseeing a rape case once said in his judgement "Had Rudyard Kipling known of this case at the time he wrote his poem If, he might have added the following: ‘And if you can control your body and your sexual urges, then you are a man, my son’.”

It has been noted by people with greater understanding of psychology than I, that while rape has sexual aspects, it is not primarily driven by "sexual urge" in the common sense - it is instead more driven by an urge to exert power over another.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There's still a heavy element of... Victim blaming, I suppose, to this whole ridiculous "wilting flower" argument. And it's not the first time it's come up in these threads.

Yes, many/most/whatever women are totally capable of handling themselves against a harasser. That doesn't excuse being a jackass, and places the responsibility for resolution straight on the victim rather than on the offender.

It's downright insulting, couched in the language of respect the way it is. "I only punched you because I knew you could take it and I know you're not a wuss. Oh, it hurts? Toughen up, cupcake!"

I dare say that if he were in the position of being sexually harassed by a gay man with 50lbs more mass (much of it muscle) than himself, he might have a different position on the necessity of seeking help from the authorities.

 

[Sadras]

It has been noted by people with greater understanding of psychology than I, that while rape has sexual aspects, it is not primarily driven by "sexual urge" in the common sense - it is instead more driven by an urge to exert power over another.

Ah, despite it being a rape case, this comment was not made because of the alleged* rape but because he found it “totally unacceptable” for a man (the defendant) to have unprotected sex with a woman who was not his regular partner, especially knowing that she was HIV-positive.

*Adding the word alleged because he wasn't convicted.

 

[Umbran]

Yes, many/most/whatever women are totally capable of handling themselves against a harasser. That doesn't excuse being a jackass, and places the responsibility for resolution straight on the victim rather than on the offender.

In addition, since when do we say it is okay to leave victims to their own devices?

There's someone there, who you could help at very little cost to yourself, but, nah, let's not bother? That's what we're supposed to do?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, AFAIK, no Western society imposes a legal duty for a bystander to act- you have to have a position where it is your actual duty it intervene (peace officer, EMS worker, lifeguard, etc.) to be legally held accountable for failing to aid someone in distress.

But morally/ethically? Most ethoi at least level opprobrium at those who respond to victimization with apathy and inaction.

 

[Rottle]

Personally I couldn't just turn my back on someone being harassed and live with my self afterward. I have little respect for those who could, legal requirements be damned you help your fellow person if you see them in need.

 

[Lord Twig]

I've been reading through this thread and a previous one and there seems to be a lot of talking past one another.

By and large it seems that virtually everyone agrees on the important parts. Harassment does happen, it should not be tolerated, the targets are disproportionately female and the perpetrators are mostly white men. These seem like uncontroversial facts.

Now there are a few points that explains some of those facts. One, harassment happens, unfortunately, just about everywhere, so RPG gatherings would be no exception. And Two, white men are a majority of RPG players and females are a minority. So not only are there more potential harassers among white men, but also they have a position of strength as a majority group. Likewise, women, as a minority group are easier targets. Of course other than the demographic of RPG players none of this has anything to do specifically with role-playing games. The same could be said of sporting events, business conventions or political rallies.

The disagreement really comes in when people try to characterize the problem as either a systemic problem of RPG gatherings or that it is less common at RPG gatherings than any other gathering. I don't think we have any conclusive evidence either way. A study or survey would probably be a good idea if GenCon or some other large gaming convention would do it.

Based on my own personal experiences I would say that Gamer gatherings are no better or worse than any other. Of course I also believe that all gatherings dominated by males (of any race) needs to do better at respecting women. It is not a gamer problem or a RPG gamer problem, it is a societal problem that needs to be addressed.

In defense of white men (of which I am one) I will say that white men are no better or worse than any other group of people. If the roles are reversed women are no better than men are. Likewise any other race is no better or worse than whites. The problem is who has the power? Who has the majority? That's the group that has the problem. And right now it is white men that are in that position, so it is white men that have the problem.

 

[Morrus]

So will your hypothetical delicate flower who heard some mean things from some big meanie a few tables over and whined like child to the first authority figure he or she could find.

Find a new hobby if this one is so full of offense.

as always,

I DON'T CARE.

That's nice for you. Please don't seek out threads you don't care about and declare your lack of caring. That has a name - it's called "threadcrapping".

Don't post in this thread again, please. Find a thread you do care about.

 

[Hussar]

I've been reading through this thread and a previous one and there seems to be a lot of talking past one another.

By and large it seems that virtually everyone agrees on the important parts. Harassment does happen, it should not be tolerated, the targets are disproportionately female and the perpetrators are mostly white men. These seem like uncontroversial facts.

Now there are a few points that explains some of those facts. One, harassment happens, unfortunately, just about everywhere, so RPG gatherings would be no exception. And Two, white men are a majority of RPG players and females are a minority. So not only are there more potential harassers among white men, but also they have a position of strength as a majority group. Likewise, women, as a minority group are easier targets. Of course other than the demographic of RPG players none of this has anything to do specifically with role-playing games. The same could be said of sporting events, business conventions or political rallies.

The disagreement really comes in when people try to characterize the problem as either a systemic problem of RPG gatherings or that it is less common at RPG gatherings than any other gathering. I don't think we have any conclusive evidence either way. A study or survey would probably be a good idea if GenCon or some other large gaming convention would do it.

Based on my own personal experiences I would say that Gamer gatherings are no better or worse than any other. Of course I also believe that all gatherings dominated by males (of any race) needs to do better at respecting women. It is not a gamer problem or a RPG gamer problem, it is a societal problem that needs to be addressed.

In defense of white men (of which I am one) I will say that white men are no better or worse than any other group of people. If the roles are reversed women are no better than men are. Likewise any other race is no better or worse than whites. The problem is who has the power? Who has the majority? That's the group that has the problem. And right now it is white men that are in that position, so it is white men that have the problem.

But, all of this may very well be true, but is 100% beside the point.

It doesn't really matter one whit that the harassers in this case are mostly white men. That's not the important part of the sentence. The important part of the sentence is that women are being harassed in gaming, and the bystanders, who are predominantly white men, are doing virtually nothing about it. And when ideas are proposed to do something about it, there's a large degree of push back because it isn't "fair". AFAIC, race isn't really an issue here, other than I do think it does point rather strongly towards the idea that the RPG community is nowhere near as welcoming as it likes to think it is.

Between the idea of "investigate the claims to prove things" and the victim blaming, it's not really surprising that many women would not feel comfortable being able to make complaints. "Oh, just go somewhere else" is 100% the WRONG answer.

 

[Rygar]

I've been reading through this thread and a previous one and there seems to be a lot of talking past one another.

By and large it seems that virtually everyone agrees on the important parts. Harassment does happen, it should not be tolerated, the targets are disproportionately female and the perpetrators are mostly white men. These seem like uncontroversial facts.

I wouldn't draw all of those conclusions. The language in this thread is decidedly political and very clearly representing a group that has spent the last year and pursuing those guilty of wrongthink online and off, including attempting to have them fired from their jobs. It's very likely that there's more than a few people like myself who've avoided direct discussion of the statements you make above out of fear of reprisal if anything is determined to be wrongthink.

It's impossible to have a conversation on this topic because of political activism and the last year and a half of events related to it, so it's impossible to draw any conclusions.