Harassment in gaming

[tomBitonti]

I agree with a lot of your post. But just to be clear, you're not suggesting that it should be a crime to include rape scenes in a game, are you?

I would say, including a rape scene in a public game at game store or in a non-private game at a convention should be clearly against the rules, with rule breakers given warnings then being asked to leave. Not a crime, but a clear infraction against the rules. Here non-public game would be any game in a scheduled public event, or a game in a public place. But not a game in someone's hotel room.

That would not be limited to rape scenes. There are lots of other cases which I would expect to be similarly treated.

There is a careful issue here: I expect that a store can have whatever policy it wants (or can it?) Meaning, there is no legal requirement that a store implement these sorts of rules. That would be an interaction between the store and its patrons. The above is what I would expect when rules of this sort are in place.

Thx!
TomB

 

[Gradine]

...
First, stop using the word "terrorist" to mean "person who does bad stuff I don't like". Language is a scalpel, not a bludgeon.

The author of the article is using "terrorist" to mean "a person who specifically targets members of a group through their actions with either the intent and/or the impact or causing terror that all members of that group are open to be targeted", which is admittedly a bit of a mouthful but is both the actual definition of the word and one that can certainly be applied to some of the bad actors described in the article.

Language is a multi-purpose, multi-faceted tool that can solve many problems in many different ways. Sometimes, as you say, subtlety is called for. Other times, well, some anvils need to be dropped.

 

[Gradine]

I would say, including a rape scene in a public game at game store or in a non-private game at a convention should be clearly against the rules, with rule breakers given warnings then being asked to leave. Not a crime, but a clear infraction against the rules. Here non-public game would be any game in a scheduled public event, or a game in a public place. But not a game in someone's hotel room.

That would not be limited to rape scenes. There are lots of other cases which I would expect to be similarly treated.

There is a careful issue here: I expect that a store can have whatever policy it wants (or can it?) Meaning, there is no legal requirement that a store implement these sorts of rules. That would be an interaction between the store and its patrons. The above is what I would expect when rules of this sort are in place.

Thx!
TomB

I feel like this is sensible but difficult if not impossible to enforce. Maybe not at Cons, where play is (theoretically, I've never attended one myself) organized and ground rules can be established at the forefront that apply to all tables.

The FLGS is where I fear change is going to be the most difficult. These stores, if they are anything like the few FLGS's I've encountered, are small, privately owned, with a tight-knit staff that is either going to be receptive to this kind of message or else they will be defensive and intransigent. For a lot of gamers there will little recourse either way; the two "F"LGS's I've patronized were also the only ones in their respective counties, with the next closest being at least an hour's drive away. This is why I do most of my game/comic shopping online now.

I'd been thinking about what game companies themselves can do, and one simple but possibly effective step would be to include language in their game master guide section to the effect of the following:

"<Insert game name here> is ruleset for designing and playing games appropriate for all ages (presumably). However, there is nothing stopping you from introducing mature content into your game. Before do, take a moment to discuss with your players the types of content they would or would not be comfortable encountering in-game. By having this discussion beforehand, you can avoid creating unpleasant situations in the moment of your game."

This wouldn't do a thing to stop any intentionally bad actors but I think (or at least I hope) that a lot of the horror stories you hear about at home games would be resolved ahead of time by encouraging tables to have the "this is what our game is going to be like" conversation in advance. I mean, how many times has a player showed up at a D&D table expecting Tolkein high-fantasy only to find out mid-session that instead their DM is trying to recreate Game of Thrones?

 

[MechaPilot]

I agree with a lot of your post. But just to be clear, you're not suggesting that it should be a crime to include rape scenes in a game, are you?

As someone who was on the receiving end of rape by PC proxy (literally the most frightening, humiliating, degrading, and traumatizing moment in my entire life), I am sorely tempted to say that it should be. I don't personally see the entertainment value of it (I usually skip movies and series that include rape scenes as well, which is why I'll never get into watching Game of Thrones, or reading the books. It's also why I was upset about having to watch American History X as part of a humanities class.), and I can't ever think of a time when it actually moved the adventure/campaign story forward.

That said (and I'm grinding my teeth as I type this), as long as people are warned ahead of time what content the game will have (a courtesy I was most certainly NOT offered: I simply would have declined to game with them and kept a wary eye on them in the future if they'd told what I could expect) and they willingly and knowingly consent to be a part of that game, include whatever you like. It's when there's no warning of what content can be expected, as was the case in what happened to me, that it starts to feel like it should be criminal, because it feels like luring someone into a trap to abuse them for one's own twisted pleasure.

 

[tomBitonti]

I feel like this is sensible but difficult if not impossible to enforce. Maybe not at Cons, where play is (theoretically, I've never attended one myself) organized and ground rules can be established at the forefront that apply to all tables.

The FLGS is where I fear change is going to be the most difficult. These stores, if they are anything like the few FLGS's I've encountered, are small, privately owned, with a tight-knit staff that is either going to be receptive to this kind of message or else they will be defensive and intransigent. For a lot of gamers there will little recourse either way; the two "F"LGS's I've patronized were also the only ones in their respective counties, with the next closest being at least an hour's drive away. This is why I do most of my game/comic shopping online now.

(text omitted)

This wouldn't do a thing to stop any unintentionally bad actors but I think (or at least I hope) that a lot of the horror stories you hear about at home games would be resolved ahead of time by encouraging tables to have the "this is what our game is going to be like" conversation in advance. I mean, how many times has a player showed up at a D&D table expecting Tolkein high-fantasy only to find out mid-session that instead their DM is trying to recreate Game of Thrones?

I agree. Game stores have the more difficult time, in particular, a small store which has a small group of patrons. The store owner will need to balance their interest in drawing in more customers to providing an environment which works for its patrons.

I have no problem having an up front discussion with groups setting up a game in the store, with a general admonition to be respectful of other patrons. That goes not just for offensive content, but also for cleanliness, rowdiness, and keeping the game in bounds in both time and space. Working in a large corporation, this sort of guideline goes without saying. I like to keep in mind that I prefer to not hear other folks political or social views at work, nor care for humor of various sorts, and find that keeping such out of public and professional spaces is a good policy.

Thx!
TomB

 

[Max_Killjoy]

I agree with a lot of your post. But just to be clear, you're not suggesting that it should be a crime to include rape scenes in a game, are you?

Crime? Probably not.

As a "surprise"? Scummy, slimy, disrespectful, low, uncouth, classless, disgusting, vile, rude, inhuman, and so on? Certainly, and very much so. If the player(s) involved don't fully agree to it ahead of time, it should never happen. If even one of the other players will be made uncomfortable by the scene, it should happen away from the main table or not at all.

 

[Hussar]

The thing is, people keep trying to treat this as a criminal issue. It's not. Not really. The rape scene in a game, the racist comment about buying a "noble savage" figure, even the chant of "old enough..." is not something that will involve the police, let alone go to court. So, why are people trying to treat this like a police procedural where we have to gather evidence, interview witnesses, etc? Good grief, in any other circumstance that would be ludicrous.

Woman goes to a bounce in a bar and says that buddy is harassing her. What happens? Bouncer talks to the guy, and possibly ejects him. There's no interviewing witnesses, reviewing security tapes, or anything like that. Complaint is made, it's acted upon and end of story.

In a hotel, I tell the manager that the people in the next room are being very loud. He goes and talks to them. He doesn't sit outside the room with a microphone and a decibel meter determining if my complaint has merit. No, he immediately calls the room, and tells them there's been a complaint, could you please keep it down.

Why would this be treated any differently?

 

[MechaPilot]

The thing is, people keep trying to treat this as a criminal issue. It's not. Not really. The rape scene in a game, the racist comment about buying a "noble savage" figure, even the chant of "old enough..." is not something that will involve the police, let alone go to court. So, why are people trying to treat this like a police procedural where we have to gather evidence, interview witnesses, etc? Good grief, in any other circumstance that would be ludicrous.

Woman goes to a bounce in a bar and says that buddy is harassing her. What happens? Bouncer talks to the guy, and possibly ejects him. There's no interviewing witnesses, reviewing security tapes, or anything like that. Complaint is made, it's acted upon and end of story.

In a hotel, I tell the manager that the people in the next room are being very loud. He goes and talks to them. He doesn't sit outside the room with a microphone and a decibel meter determining if my complaint has merit. No, he immediately calls the room, and tells them there's been a complaint, could you please keep it down.

Why would this be treated any differently?

Some of it is a criminal issue because certain criminal acts (groping, making threats, rape, etc.) fall under the general umbrella of harassment of women in gaming. The non-criminal harassment is not a criminal issue (I mean, that goes without saying, but I wanted to be clear about it), but some seem to want criminal standards of innocence to apply to all varieties of harassment when the various civil standard are far more relevant.

In tax, there are several non-criminal standards: "reasonable basis" (a roughly 20% chance of being upheld on its merits), "substantial authority" (a one in three chance of being upheld on its merits), and "more likely than not" or "preponderance of the evidence" (a greater than 50% chance of being upheld on its merits). These standards are allowed to be lower than the criminal standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" (which despite public myth does not mean beyond "all" doubt) because meeting them doesn't result in depriving someone of their freedom, or executing them. They simply result in paying fines, or loss of money/property which, by their very nature, are replaceable where life and freedom are not. If any legal standard is to be applied, which is a discussion of its own, it really should be one of these civil standards and not the criminal standard.

 

[LordEntrails]

...

Woman goes to a bounce in a bar and says that buddy is harassing her. What happens? Bouncer talks to the guy, and possibly ejects him. There's no interviewing witnesses, reviewing security tapes, or anything like that. Complaint is made, it's acted upon and end of story.

In a hotel, I tell the manager that the people in the next room are being very loud. He goes and talks to them. He doesn't sit outside the room with a microphone and a decibel meter determining if my complaint has merit. No, he immediately calls the room, and tells them there's been a complaint, could you please keep it down.

Why would this be treated any differently?

Problem is, a lot of bouncers and hotel managers won't act. A lot of con staff and store managers and owners won't act either. They should, but they don't.

Note, I'm not saying it should be treated any differently from those instances. Just thatthose instances aren't always handled successfully either.

 

[Jester David]

The thing is, people keep trying to treat this as a criminal issue. It's not. Not really. The rape scene in a game, the racist comment about buying a "noble savage" figure, even the chant of "old enough..." is not something that will involve the police, let alone go to court. So, why are people trying to treat this like a police procedural where we have to gather evidence, interview witnesses, etc? Good grief, in any other circumstance that would be ludicrous.

It totally is not a crime.

Until it is.

It really depends on motive. Once the rape scene becomes a threat, once actual rape is being implied and people feel endangered and not just uncomfortable, then it crosses a line.
Until then it's just in poor taste. One of the many, many, many topics its probably just not cool to have occur at the game table unless everyone is explicitly onboard. Like child endangerment, incest, infanticide, bestiality, lynchings, and many other topics. There's some real sick, sick that happens in the world, but we really don't need them at the game table. Rape can join that list.