Harassment in gaming

[Springheel]

The thing is, people keep trying to treat this as a criminal issue. It's not. Not really. The rape scene in a game, the racist comment about buying a "noble savage" figure, even the chant of "old enough..." is not something that will involve the police, let alone go to court. So, why are people trying to treat this like a police procedural where we have to gather evidence, interview witnesses, etc? Good grief, in any other circumstance that would be ludicrous.

In a hotel, I tell the manager that the people in the next room are being very loud. He goes and talks to them. He doesn't sit outside the room with a microphone and a decibel meter determining if my complaint has merit. No, he immediately calls the room, and tells them there's been a complaint, could you please keep it down.

Why would this be treated any differently?

The difference comes down to the consequences involved. In the case of a single noise complaint, there is no real consequence, so it's not particularly important to ensure that the complaint is genuine. If the complaint would result in the person being evicted from their room, then it becomes more important for those enforcing the consequence to make sure there is a solid reason to do so.

 

[Springheel]

The case does seem to be an example showing that harassment claims can be used to cause civil harm. That is, depending on the particulars of the case, which are uncertain. (I tried to find information about the case, but didn't find a lot that I can rely on.)

There's also the Gregory Elliott case, which was specifically about using anti-harassment laws as a weapon against someone. He was recently found innocent, but not until after losing his job and spending 3 years banned from using a phone or the internet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Elliott

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There are also well documented cases of people being wrongfully convicted of theft, rape, murder and everything else, sometimes accidentally, sometimes as part of a deliberate attempt to deflect suspicion from the actual criminals or even just to harm someone. It is an unfortunate and unavoidable part of the legal system.

 

[Hussar]

The difference comes down to the consequences involved. In the case of a single noise complaint, there is no real consequence, so it's not particularly important to ensure that the complaint is genuine. If the complaint would result in the person being evicted from their room, then it becomes more important for those enforcing the consequence to make sure there is a solid reason to do so.

Who's saying a single harassment complaint would automatically result in someone being ejected from a convention? That's a bit disingenuous isn't it? The consequences for the vast majority of harassment complaints are exactly the same as a single noise complaint - the manager comes, tells the person to stop doing whatever is causing the complaint and, assuming no further complaints, that's the end of the story.

Someone telling dick jokes, playing out rape scenarios, leering, jeering, and various other forms of harassment are best handled in exactly the same way. Which is the point of this entire thread - that no one is stepping up and acting. Complaints are being ignored. Complaints are being treated like some sort of bizarre role play scenario where the managers should act like CSI investigators. Complaints are being treated as always suspect because they might be weaponised against some poor schmuck.

 

[Springheel]

Who's saying a single harassment complaint would automatically result in someone being ejected from a convention? That's a bit disingenuous isn't it?

I wasn't suggesting that either.

Someone telling dick jokes, playing out rape scenarios, leering, jeering, and various other forms of harassment are best handled in exactly the same way. Which is the point of this entire thread - that no one is stepping up and acting. Complaints are being ignored. Complaints are being treated like some sort of bizarre role play scenario where the managers should act like CSI investigators. Complaints are being treated as always suspect because they might be weaponised against some poor schmuck.

It might help if we're clearer about what kind of complaints and consequences we're actually talking about then. Someone making a dick joke is a far cry from someone being groped, and talking about both interchangeably is bound to lead to confusion (not saying you were, but rude comments and physical assault have both been conflated regularly in this thread).

 

[MechaPilot]

It might help if we're clearer about what kind of complaints and consequences we're actually talking about then. Someone making a dick joke is a far cry from someone being groped, and talking about both interchangeably is bound to lead to confusion (not saying you were, but rude comments and physical assault have both been conflated regularly in this thread).

I haven't seen them conflated (not that I recall the contents of every post in this thread), but I do feel it's worth mentioning that they are related in that there is a general sphere of harassment that includes both criminal harassment (groping, threats, rape, etc) and non-criminal harassment (PC rape, cat-calling, etc). Any addressing of harassment in general should be geared toward both the criminal and non-criminal types, though different approaches will likely be needed for the two different types, and it doesn't do any harm to discuss approaches to each type of harassment (i.e. criminal and non-criminal) separately. Again though, we should bear in mind that they are related in that they both exist within the general cloud of harassment that is faced.

 

[Hussar]

I wasn't suggesting that either.



It might help if we're clearer about what kind of complaints and consequences we're actually talking about then. Someone making a dick joke is a far cry from someone being groped, and talking about both interchangeably is bound to lead to confusion (not saying you were, but rude comments and physical assault have both been conflated regularly in this thread).

I'd argue that the conflation has been largely one sided - we should investigate every complaint and determine to criminal law levels whether or not it should be acted upon. I've repeatedly tried to argue that the majority of harassment cases aren't criminal. Even the ones in the original blog post have several that would never be considered criminal acts. So, when people talk about harassment policies being weaponized to silence people, the presumption is that most complaints will result in severe penalties. Thing is, most won't. The overwhelming majority of cases will be handled quietly and with a minimum of fuss.

Heck, even the guy whispering inappropriate things in the ear of a cosplayer would never involve criminal charges. There's just no way it realistically could. However, the basic presumption should be that when the woman makes that complaint, it will be acted upon. And another basic presumption should be that any behaviour like this, in our hobby, in public, would be publicly and quickly dealt with by the people around. That by remaining silent, by not wanting to get involved, by assuming it's someone else's problem, we are all contributing to the problem.

So, in the end, what do we do, as a community, to deal with it? Well, part of it has to be education. That's a given. Harassment, like bullying, has to be talked about. Threads like this are a very good thing. Raise awareness. Make people realize that their actions do, actually, hurt others and hurt the hobby. Hey, I'm all about the well phrased dick joke. Our last D&D session invented the term "gargloryhole", so it's not like I'm saying that the humour can't circle the potty. But, OTOH, I'm playing in an online game, over Skype with everyone on headphones. The only people we could offend are each other. Making those same jokes in an FLGS or a Con is not a good idea. And people need to learn that it isn't a good idea.

The guy who body shamed gamers with that photo spread got banned for 18 months. And, really, good. That's precisely the reaction that should happen. Sure, I thought it was kinda funny too, but, really, no, it isn't. And, the fact that people complained and this guy got banned raises awareness. The next time I see someone posting those kinds of pictures, I'm a whole lot less likely to laugh about it. Because, really, it's not funny. It's harassment pure and simple. And instead of laughing about it, the reaction should be one of condemnation.

 

[LordEntrails]

...

So, in the end, what do we do, as a community, to deal with it? Well, part of it has to be education. That's a given. Harassment, like bullying, has to be talked about. Threads like this are a very good thing. Raise awareness. Make people realize that their actions do, actually, hurt others and hurt the hobby. ....

The answer to that question a couple hundred of posts ago was that it was all about raising awareness.

But I doubt this thread is doing that. At least not anymore. Those people who need to be made aware of this issue probably dropped out of following this thread 5 or 6 hundred posts ago.

 

[DOTTIE]

How much of an issue is harassment within our gaming community? Do we believe that harassment is more prevalent within our gaming community than in general? If the answer to the second question is a yes, I would seriously be surprised, because generally I think guys are guys everywhere. I get the 'boys club mentality, I imagine there was a similar reaction when women started joining golf clubs. The harassment issue is foreign to me, but I'm thinking it might be more prevalent (besides the points raised by @MechaPilot previously) due to the 'safety' of the boys club, I'm guessing, which is pretty pathetic.

I understand the occasional gawking, a few turn-back looks...etc are the norm, but the groping, overly sexual passes and rape threats and the like are way past point of comfortable. I'm hoping the harassment issue goes the way of the dodo as the demographic of our community changes as I expect it would. Many of us are bringing wives, girlfriends, daughters and their friends into the hobby so it can only but change.

Gaming is by and large free of harassment of any kind. I'd say it has much less of a problem than an average place.

 

[Morrus]

Gaming is by and large free of harassment of any kind. I'd say it has much less of a problem than an average place.

No, it's not. As evidenced by all the people who have been harassed. Hell, even I have (online version) recieved threats to the point where police were informed, although I obviously don't consider myself part of a demographic for whom it's endemic. I've had to ban people from this very site for harassing behaviour on multiple occasions. Free of harassment, it is most certainly not.