D&D 5E Berserker - How does it really compare to Totem Warrior?
- Thread starter Sword of Spirit
- Start date
1. Please, I'm begging you, read the actual posts you're responding to. It would save us both the time and effort. Resistance = don't care about getting hit from non-BPS damage sources = more Reckless Attack. Reckless Attack + GWM = biggest damage boost in the game. Your Frenzy Barb is getting tagged with Drow Warrior poison blades and can't go Reckless (or if they do will drop significantly quicker which = 0 DPR), while the Totem Barb doesn't care nearly as much. Damage Resistance = more Reckless Attacking.
Additionally, just 1 level of Exhaustion = you're going to fail more shove/grapple checks = enemies have advantage against you = more damage and more dead and more time spent doing 0 DPR.
BUT, you are contradicting yourself here...see point #3.
2. Yup. After you said that was your name I checked. We haven't.
3. So wait. In point #1 you stated that more damage = better, because dead enemies. I can agree with that. You claim that the Frenzy barb can do more damage than the Totem Barb builds posted. Yet, in several of the previous posts it's clearly been shown that it doesn't. And then here, you admit that the Totem Barb builds would wreck your Frenzy barb in terms of doing damage...logically inconsistent.
YOU have yet to post a build that does more damage than the posted Totem barbs (PAM + GWM which takes all of level 4 to hit). Please, post a level 4 Frenzy Barb build that does more damage, especially considering how long it's likely to live, impact on gameplay of achieving that DPR (almost none for Totem Barb because no downsides). Another post literally tried to do that for you (giving Frenzy Barb PAM + GWM) but you literally stated that the posted build was bad/wrong/etc. So, what's your build for your Frenzy Barb that does more damage than the posted Totem Barb?
*edit*
I'll likely be at the Strategicon one in I believe September. Would love you see your Frenzy Barb then.
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ChrisCarlson
First Post
Excellent. By all means, definitely look me up while you are there. I always love meeting online personas and putting faces to names. We can grab a drink (assuming you are of legal drinking age, that is) and talk about all things D&D and ENWorld.
Awesome!
To which builds are you referring, exactly?
Has it? I don't recall seeing that and I followed this entire thread. Do you have a link or post numbers to which I can go back and refresh my memory? I seem to recall coming away feeling the opposite. That several people bothering to do real math here have shown they are comparable at the least.
That's not quite true. I will reiterate what I actually said...
"I have no doubt that this proposed totem barbarian, with two top-tier combat feats, "wrecks" a berzerker barbarian using only their 3rd level frenzy feature. You are absolutely correct."
I went ahead and bolded the parts that identify why I believe you are coming to the (faulty) conclusion you find yourself defending. Hope that helps.
The whole premise that the Bear Totem Barbarian can out damage a Berserker Barbarian because of Reckless Attack _ Polearm Mastery is highly flawed and only valid in theory land - not real game land.
The real answer to this question is "It depends".
Running Tyranny of Dragons as is for example - it's filled with large numbers of trash mobs that for the most part do 90% B/P/S damage (in fact the whole Premise of 5e is to keep using low level trash mobs through-out the campaign).
Meaning that Polearm Mastery is almost a bit of a wasted feat in this module, because our Barbarian can one or two shot a lot of these trash mobs and thus get the bonus attack from GWM regardless (which is doing higher damage than PAM).
Then for those Dragon Fights he can frenzy and has no issues. The Bear Totem extra resistance is also almost wasted anyway because the Barbarian has the most hitpoints out of anyone in the part regardless of primal path, and it's not the Barbarian staying power that matters in these fights - it's the staying power of the other party members which dictates the success or failure of the combat.
So white room theory and maths is all fine and dandy, but the real world answer is much more complicated than that.
The real answer to this question is "It depends".
Running Tyranny of Dragons as is for example - it's filled with large numbers of trash mobs that for the most part do 90% B/P/S damage (in fact the whole Premise of 5e is to keep using low level trash mobs through-out the campaign).
Meaning that Polearm Mastery is almost a bit of a wasted feat in this module, because our Barbarian can one or two shot a lot of these trash mobs and thus get the bonus attack from GWM regardless (which is doing higher damage than PAM).
Then for those Dragon Fights he can frenzy and has no issues. The Bear Totem extra resistance is also almost wasted anyway because the Barbarian has the most hitpoints out of anyone in the part regardless of primal path, and it's not the Barbarian staying power that matters in these fights - it's the staying power of the other party members which dictates the success or failure of the combat.
So white room theory and maths is all fine and dandy, but the real world answer is much more complicated than that.
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Leatherhead
Possibly a Idiot.
I would like to point out that Eagle Totem's perception ability is really great.
Firstly, it negates disadvantage. Which is amazing because you can use it to preserve advantage.
Secondly, it works for up to a mile a way.
Thirdly, perception checks happen all the time. Charm/fear saves not so much.
While not technically a combat power, the amount of times it will save you from ambushes should count for something.
Firstly, it negates disadvantage. Which is amazing because you can use it to preserve advantage.
Secondly, it works for up to a mile a way.
Thirdly, perception checks happen all the time. Charm/fear saves not so much.
While not technically a combat power, the amount of times it will save you from ambushes should count for something.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
Too many things to quote...
First, let me say thanks to [MENTION=6852869]Lillika[/MENTION] for some excellent analysis. Those are exactly the sorts of thoughts I was originally looking for.
I've done some more math where I dropped feats entirely and compared Wolf Totem with Berserker. Since the exact number and damage output of a Wolf Totem's allies can vary a lot, I went with an estimate that is, I believe, on the conservative side of average. I assumed that he has 1.5 allies in melee each using a d8 weapon and gaining an Extra Attack at level 5. I assumed an average 65% chance to hit (which, if my advantage math comes out right, means an expected additional 35% damage). I also took into account Retaliation (which I didn't before). However, since Retaliation only comes in at higher levels, I also included a chart that gives values for before 14th level.
'
("All Frenzies" means if we theoretically just dropped the exhaustion penalty entirely.)
Things that weren't taken into account include critical hits (this won't matter much for the barbarians, since they all get advantage, but it might slightly increase the wolf's damage), and all of the other variables that can't be anticipated. Every campaign is different--this is just baseline math.
Before I comment on the chart, I want to briefly address some of the other points that were brought up.
There has been a suggestion that we compare the Berserker's 6th-level feature to the Totem Warrior's 3rd-level feature rather than the same level feature. If we do so, we can assume that the Bear Totem's feature is more or less equivalent to the Mindless Rage. It is highly campaign dependent. In most campaigns, you are going to have plenty of both types of effects. (As far as the Bear Totem not having his feature up when he needs it, from 7th level on he can avoid surprise, so that isn't, in my opinion, an extremely weighty consideration.) So let's say those are roughly equal in effect. If we have to make a decision, I'll let us say Berserker is a bit better off.
That leaves us comparing a Berserker's: Frenzy, Intimidating Presence, and Retaliation, with the Totem Warrior's: Spirit Seeker, Aspect of the Beast, Spirit Walker, and Totemic Attunement. Retaliation is really good, but Totemic Attunement is pretty nice also. Let's, again, be generous to the Berserker and say it gets the edge, even though I'm not sure that's true. Aspect of the Beast and Intimidating Presence are pretty close in my opinion. If anything, Aspect of the Beast gets the edge here. So that leaves us with Frenzy vs. Spirit Seeker and Spirit Walker. Spirit Speaker and Spirit Walker are utility, but put all together are pretty nice. The Totem Warrior can do effective scouting and other information gathering. This is contrasted to Frenzy, the benefit of which is a hotly contested thing.
If we assume that Frenzy is intended to be used about 1/day (aiming for your last fight) as a situationally useful trick, then you can probably say the subclasses are more or less balanced taken over all 20 levels.
All of that is assuming a comparison with Bear Totem. If, on the other hand, we make a comparison with Wolf Totem, damage gets more complicated and depends not just on party composition, but on number of times frenzied.
As you can see, in order to keep up with Wolf Totem before level 14th, we need to be frenzying about 3/day. After that, we can drop it to 2/day. This is problematic for a couple of reasons.
Once your Berserker is Frenzying multiple times per day, the mechanical benefit of the feature drops in effectiveness, as the exhaustion counteracts some of the benefit through reduced initiative and mobility (as well as non-combat utility). If Berserker vs. Wolf Totem frenzies only 1/day, his damage is pitiful compared to the damage contribution of the Wolf Totem. At that point it is straight up Wolf Totem: Damage, Berserker: Immunity to charmed and frightened. (Well, not exactly. Totem Warrior also gets significantly more utility).
So again, we end up with the 1-20 balance being within reasonable toleration, as long as the Berserker only frenzies 1/day.
That leaves us with problems.
The first is that Berserker isn't functioning as advertised. When you look at the theme of the Berserker path class, what do you think it should be best at? What is supposed to be its shtick compared to the Totem Warrior? Before reading the mechanics, I absolutely would think, "damage output." This is the guy that says, "I'm the BIG weapon--hit them with me!" Looking at the mechanics, the first thing I see is "Frenzy." Cool! I can make extra attacks, which is such a big deal that I get worn out afterwards. Yep, this guy is the damage king.
But that isn't what we have. We have a guy who can be immune to charmed and frightened. That appears to be his actual stick. For damage, pick a Wolf Totem Warrior, or take a feat. Berserker can get a tiny bit more damage with the same feats, but not enough to be worth taking the class for, compared to what you could get with the same feat and a Totem Warrior of your choice. And if you do stick with that safe 1/day frenzy, you aren't even getting much out of that subclass until 6th level. You've got 3 levels of Totem envy to wade through before you get that immunity to charmed and frightened.
And perhaps even more important (depending on what matters more to you) is that using the Berserker's ability for more than the final fight (hope you guessed right!) makes him fall right out of his niche. I'm the barbarian, I should be the one kickin' in the doors, bending the bars, and lifting the damn gates! But, nope. Not after frenzying. Now the guy with a Strength of 12-14 is the better choice for the group's muscle. And if I'm trying to go for even more frenzies, I might be slowing down the whole group today. I'm also going to suck tomorrow. Instead of being the mighty raging warrior, after actually using the features that look like I should be using them, I become the guy slowing everyone down and not doing my job in exploration. That bother me just as much as the first one.
Here is my conclusion on what they intended in design: You were supposed to frenzy 3/day, and the drawbacks weren't supposed to be a big deal.
If that were the case, then Berserker would function as advertised. Sure, Wolf Totem can contribute more damage if it has enough helpers, but you get to do a lot of personal damage, which is what you are (supposed to be) all about. Unfortunately, as I explained above, the rules do not support wielding your Berserker in such a manner.
Fixing it by dropping exhaustion entirely is actually perfectly balanced up to 13th level. After that, it seems to me to make the Berserker way too strong. So that still leaves me wondering about an elegant way to balance damage.
First, let me say thanks to [MENTION=6852869]Lillika[/MENTION] for some excellent analysis. Those are exactly the sorts of thoughts I was originally looking for.
I've done some more math where I dropped feats entirely and compared Wolf Totem with Berserker. Since the exact number and damage output of a Wolf Totem's allies can vary a lot, I went with an estimate that is, I believe, on the conservative side of average. I assumed that he has 1.5 allies in melee each using a d8 weapon and gaining an Extra Attack at level 5. I assumed an average 65% chance to hit (which, if my advantage math comes out right, means an expected additional 35% damage). I also took into account Retaliation (which I didn't before). However, since Retaliation only comes in at higher levels, I also included a chart that gives values for before 14th level.
'("All Frenzies" means if we theoretically just dropped the exhaustion penalty entirely.)
Things that weren't taken into account include critical hits (this won't matter much for the barbarians, since they all get advantage, but it might slightly increase the wolf's damage), and all of the other variables that can't be anticipated. Every campaign is different--this is just baseline math.
Before I comment on the chart, I want to briefly address some of the other points that were brought up.
There has been a suggestion that we compare the Berserker's 6th-level feature to the Totem Warrior's 3rd-level feature rather than the same level feature. If we do so, we can assume that the Bear Totem's feature is more or less equivalent to the Mindless Rage. It is highly campaign dependent. In most campaigns, you are going to have plenty of both types of effects. (As far as the Bear Totem not having his feature up when he needs it, from 7th level on he can avoid surprise, so that isn't, in my opinion, an extremely weighty consideration.) So let's say those are roughly equal in effect. If we have to make a decision, I'll let us say Berserker is a bit better off.
That leaves us comparing a Berserker's: Frenzy, Intimidating Presence, and Retaliation, with the Totem Warrior's: Spirit Seeker, Aspect of the Beast, Spirit Walker, and Totemic Attunement. Retaliation is really good, but Totemic Attunement is pretty nice also. Let's, again, be generous to the Berserker and say it gets the edge, even though I'm not sure that's true. Aspect of the Beast and Intimidating Presence are pretty close in my opinion. If anything, Aspect of the Beast gets the edge here. So that leaves us with Frenzy vs. Spirit Seeker and Spirit Walker. Spirit Speaker and Spirit Walker are utility, but put all together are pretty nice. The Totem Warrior can do effective scouting and other information gathering. This is contrasted to Frenzy, the benefit of which is a hotly contested thing.
If we assume that Frenzy is intended to be used about 1/day (aiming for your last fight) as a situationally useful trick, then you can probably say the subclasses are more or less balanced taken over all 20 levels.
All of that is assuming a comparison with Bear Totem. If, on the other hand, we make a comparison with Wolf Totem, damage gets more complicated and depends not just on party composition, but on number of times frenzied.
As you can see, in order to keep up with Wolf Totem before level 14th, we need to be frenzying about 3/day. After that, we can drop it to 2/day. This is problematic for a couple of reasons.
Once your Berserker is Frenzying multiple times per day, the mechanical benefit of the feature drops in effectiveness, as the exhaustion counteracts some of the benefit through reduced initiative and mobility (as well as non-combat utility). If Berserker vs. Wolf Totem frenzies only 1/day, his damage is pitiful compared to the damage contribution of the Wolf Totem. At that point it is straight up Wolf Totem: Damage, Berserker: Immunity to charmed and frightened. (Well, not exactly. Totem Warrior also gets significantly more utility).
So again, we end up with the 1-20 balance being within reasonable toleration, as long as the Berserker only frenzies 1/day.
That leaves us with problems.
The first is that Berserker isn't functioning as advertised. When you look at the theme of the Berserker path class, what do you think it should be best at? What is supposed to be its shtick compared to the Totem Warrior? Before reading the mechanics, I absolutely would think, "damage output." This is the guy that says, "I'm the BIG weapon--hit them with me!" Looking at the mechanics, the first thing I see is "Frenzy." Cool! I can make extra attacks, which is such a big deal that I get worn out afterwards. Yep, this guy is the damage king.
But that isn't what we have. We have a guy who can be immune to charmed and frightened. That appears to be his actual stick. For damage, pick a Wolf Totem Warrior, or take a feat. Berserker can get a tiny bit more damage with the same feats, but not enough to be worth taking the class for, compared to what you could get with the same feat and a Totem Warrior of your choice. And if you do stick with that safe 1/day frenzy, you aren't even getting much out of that subclass until 6th level. You've got 3 levels of Totem envy to wade through before you get that immunity to charmed and frightened.
And perhaps even more important (depending on what matters more to you) is that using the Berserker's ability for more than the final fight (hope you guessed right!) makes him fall right out of his niche. I'm the barbarian, I should be the one kickin' in the doors, bending the bars, and lifting the damn gates! But, nope. Not after frenzying. Now the guy with a Strength of 12-14 is the better choice for the group's muscle. And if I'm trying to go for even more frenzies, I might be slowing down the whole group today. I'm also going to suck tomorrow. Instead of being the mighty raging warrior, after actually using the features that look like I should be using them, I become the guy slowing everyone down and not doing my job in exploration. That bother me just as much as the first one.
Here is my conclusion on what they intended in design: You were supposed to frenzy 3/day, and the drawbacks weren't supposed to be a big deal.
If that were the case, then Berserker would function as advertised. Sure, Wolf Totem can contribute more damage if it has enough helpers, but you get to do a lot of personal damage, which is what you are (supposed to be) all about. Unfortunately, as I explained above, the rules do not support wielding your Berserker in such a manner.
Fixing it by dropping exhaustion entirely is actually perfectly balanced up to 13th level. After that, it seems to me to make the Berserker way too strong. So that still leaves me wondering about an elegant way to balance damage.
AverageCitizen
Explorer
What if we give them one or two rages free before they start stacking exhaustion?
feartheminotaur
First Post
I was discussing this thread (before it got, uh, bogged down and I just nope'd out of it) with another player in our weekly game who is prepping a weekend marathon game for his wife and college buddies. He had came to a similar conclusion when his wife was making her barbarian: Frenzy should be usable 2, probably 3/day without gaining that second level of exhaustion.
His suggested fixes were: First Frenzy is Free (alliteration!), so the levels of exhaustion start accruing after the 2nd use - so, 2/day basically; OR, one level of exhaustion from Frenzy (or just in general) should be removed per rest - not long, but any rest, so that would work out to 3/day.
I believe he is going to do the second - allow levels of Frenzy exhaustion to be removed 1/rest.
His suggested fixes were: First Frenzy is Free (alliteration!), so the levels of exhaustion start accruing after the 2nd use - so, 2/day basically; OR, one level of exhaustion from Frenzy (or just in general) should be removed per rest - not long, but any rest, so that would work out to 3/day.
I believe he is going to do the second - allow levels of Frenzy exhaustion to be removed 1/rest.
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The_Furious_Puffin
First Post
The way to do the test you are proposing BTW is run an optimised is party through a series of challenges. The published adventures are the best at giving you team monsters DPR and damage types. Make the party something good and turn the handle.
Altentively just just design some equal CR encounters and run them through.
Bardbarian
First Post
A quick thought on exaustion. I was considering giving the berzerker the benefit of being able to make a save vs exaustion instead of the level 10 ability. The DC would be 10 for the first time per day rising by 5 each save made in between a long rest. Any thoughts on this balance wise, or in regards to ability replacement?
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