D&D 5E Is the major thing that's disappointing about Sorcerers is the lack of sorcery point options?

[Willie the Duck]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by single Stat character. Surely, the sorcerer will still need a reasonable Dex and if there are no other arcane casters in the group, a reasonable Int too (for Arcana checks).

I don't wholly disagree with you, I just feel Charisma is over represented as a spell casting stat. There is no 'mana' or 'arcana' stat in D&D so it feels like they shoe-horned the Sorcerer into Cha for lack of anything better. I wouldn't be heart-broken if the Sorcerer disappeared altogether.

Very simple. All classes need constitution. All classes except those wearing heavy armor need dex (although finding a way to get heavy armor proficiency is pretty easy). Every other spellcasting class need at least one other attribute (int, wis, or cha) to be effective. Wizards need int, dex, and con. Warlocks, bards, and sorcs need cha, dex, and con. Clerics need wis and con and then a muddled mess of str and dex depending on what you are doing with them (except nature priests, who can get by with just con and wis, because of shillelagh, and that seems to be if not overpowered, at least frequently exploited).

Charisma seems to have become the "casting stat unless there's a compelling reason to have it be otherwise." That made sense when it was a dump stat (which int now has become except for wizards and resident int-based skill-havers).

As to redundancy, Sorcerer and Warlock share a lot of design space (and frankly, the warlock was created because the sorcerer didn't do a good enough job at being the "spellcaster, but really simple to play"). Perhaps one or the other could go in any given campaign, but I like the option of having both, and wish the sorc was better.

As it stands, the only time I see a sorcerer played is in a sorcadin build.

 

[Yunru]

My group is experimenting with a couple new metamagic options, including Energy Substitution from 3.x. We're hoping this will allow us to address at least some of the points you've made.

Don't forget to up the number of metamagics the sorcerer can take propertionally.

 

[CapnZapp]

My group is experimenting with a couple new metamagic options, including Energy Substitution from 3.x. We're hoping this will allow us to address at least some of the points you've made.

Thing is, 3rd Edition made it abundantly clear a general substitution option is way too powerful.

You really need to ask the player to choose one element, to do it when taking the feat, and then locking down the choice so it can't change.

A Winter Witch being able to cast iceballs? Cool. Thematic. Fairly balanced. If you no longer can cast Fireball.

The balanced approach would ideally be to add a bunch of new cold-themed spells, including at least "overstrength" option at spell level three or thereabouts.

Then you could ask the player to pick these new gorgeous cold spells and not feel like a jerk for witholding Fireball.

Energy Sub can work as a quick-fix, if it makes that happen (on the cheap).

If it hands out tickets to the "Get Around Immunity" gala, that's something completely different.

In this case, "it's a feat, it needs to provide value" leads you astray. If you feel the ability to cast Iceballs instead of Fireballs is not powerful enough for a feat, then give it away for free.

That's what the Sorcerer class should have been about anyway.

 

[Jago]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by single Stat character. Surely, the sorcerer will still need a reasonable Dex and if there are no other arcane casters in the group, a reasonable Int too (for Arcana checks).

I don't wholly disagree with you, I just feel Charisma is over represented as a spell casting stat. There is no 'mana' or 'arcana' stat in D&D so it feels like they shoe-horned the Sorcerer into Cha for lack of anything better. I wouldn't be heart-broken if the Sorcerer disappeared altogether.

[MENTION=6799660]Willie the Duck[/MENTION] had the right of it above. A Con Caster is leaps and bounds ahead of the curve because they can basically focus on upping that and nothing else. On top of that, the Sorcerer is proficient in Con Saves (very handy ability), meaning they'll have more health than the average d6 Hit Die spellcaster, and will have a huge leg up on Concentration spells and saves versus things that spellcasters are usually bad at saving against (many affects vs. Con can end a spellcasters reign prematurely).

If we look at pure mechanics and basically what powerplayers would shoot for, a Con Based caster doesn't really need more than Con: their HP is high and their spells are incredibly potent and hard to resist, all in one. At least the other Classes, as pointed out, need to kinda worry about other Stats. The Con Sorc needs no Dex mod beyond "Not a negative", really. They'll have Mage Armor up all the time, 13 AC. Someone attacks them? Shield, now it's as good as Plate. This isn't even considering if they go Draconic, which I feel is the most popular, and they're rocking a 13 AC out the door. They'd really only need to put points into stats that are either important saves (like Dex and Wis) or into stats they want skills from (like Charisma).



Now, I personally love the Sorcerer concept. The Sorcerer was casting spells from Charisma before it was cool (and their skill list did not support this whatsoever: rather nice that now it finally does). It would still be nice if perhaps they got a means to Eschew Materials like before (they don't need material components / an arcane focus unless there is a specified cost involved), because then you really get the idea of a spellcaster that you cannot disarm outside of Silence or Counterspell, and then even, Subtle Spell metamagic negates those too.

The Warlock needs a connection to their patron. The Bard needs to rock a sick lute solo. The Wizard needs their book and some doohickey like a staff or wand or something. Druids have their holly or mistletoe, Paladins and Clerics hold up their amulets or the severed finger of some saint or the other.

Why do Sorcerers need a focus? They Are Magic. They ARE the Focus for their abilities. This alone would add a flavor to the class that other Spellcasters do not have, since all the others can have their focus taken away from them, and Wizards can have their books stolen or burned. You cannot stop the Sorcerer from casting, though (Subtle Spell factored in), not unless you put them down for good.

I would be saddened to see the Sorcerer go the way of other classes and concepts, because I feel they definitely fit the D&D settings and archetypes, and they should be offering something different to the table. As it stands, if you want to be the stereotypical powerful spellcaster, you're pretty much going Wizard. Or Warlock, as it were. But mostly Wizard.

Wizards of The Coast does have them some favoritism. SoTC sounds better anyway, grumblegrumble.

 

[The_Gneech]

I would be upset if the sorcerer went away. One of my favorite characters is an elementalist sorcerer who's not-quite-dumb-as-a-rock, but can call down fire and lightning like you wouldn't believe. She absolutely would not work as either a wizard or a warlock.

-The Gneech

 

[Tony Vargas]

They failed to make it abundantly clear that the power of the subclass relies on you the DM being maximally generous.[/B]

Isn't that abundantly clear across the board, though?

Is the major thing that's disappointing about Sorcerers is the lack of sorcery point options?

Speaking as a fan of the 3.5 Sorcerer, the major disappointment isn't the Sorcerer, itself, which is, if anything, more evocative of a 'natural' or instinctive magic-wielder than ever.

It's that everyone else made off with its Spontaneous Casting.

 

[Croesus]

Thing is, 3rd Edition made it abundantly clear a general substitution option is way too powerful.

You really need to ask the player to choose one element, to do it when taking the feat, and then locking down the choice so it can't change.

A Winter Witch being able to cast iceballs? Cool. Thematic. Fairly balanced. If you no longer can cast Fireball.

The balanced approach would ideally be to add a bunch of new cold-themed spells, including at least "overstrength" option at spell level three or thereabouts.

Then you could ask the player to pick these new gorgeous cold spells and not feel like a jerk for witholding Fireball.

Energy Sub can work as a quick-fix, if it makes that happen (on the cheap).

If it hands out tickets to the "Get Around Immunity" gala, that's something completely different.

I'm not sure I agree that Energy Sub is overpowered (the one we found overpowered was Sculpt Spell). Given the limited number of metamagic options a single sorcerer can take, there's a definite trade-off. That said, we're still testing - the sorcerer is only 5th level - so if it turns out to be too good, we'll try something else.

 

[Croesus]

Don't forget to up the number of metamagics the sorcerer can take propertionally.

We're testing that also, though we're being very careful. Giving a sorcerer too many metamagic options may be too good. I hope not, as the metamagic options are the only thing that makes the sorcerer fun to me.

 

[akr71]

[MENTION=6855130]Jago[/MENTION] & [MENTION=6799660]Willie the Duck[/MENTION] - fair enough and thanks for your well presented arguments. Also, when you take half-casters into the picture, I guess Charisma isn't as over-represented as a spell casting stat as I first thought.

3 Intelligence (Wizard, Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight)
3 Wisdom (Cleric, Druid, Ranger)
4 Charisma (Bard, Paladin, Sorcerer, Warlock)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I know of no DM who would constantly trigger tides of chaos (as most find it too powerful). In such cases the player is left with a 1 in 20 chance of rolling on the wild surge table, and that's if a DM wants them too. A 5% chance of something happening just isn't fun. What's so 'Wild' about a spellcaster with, effectively, fancy criticals?

Well, me for one. My direction to the players is "the frequency of the d20 roll for wild magic is 'Never, because that's a lot of boring die-rolling for little effect', but the frequency of wild magic after Tides of Chaos is 'Always'." I believe it's important to player empowerment for players to have predictability, so instead of clutching my cards to my chest I just tell them flat out what my ruling is going to be.