D&D 5E Is the major thing that's disappointing about Sorcerers is the lack of sorcery point options?

[MoonSong]

Sounding really convincing there. About as convincing as Charm freaking Person is convincing IHateThisSpellSoMuch.

Although apparently I did not see the 2nd black cat walk by and am missing the deja vu?

Well I happen to have quite quite a long history of umm <female dog>ing about the sorcerer in these boards. sometimes even using the same arguments you do, except less informed and more hysterical.

 

[Yunru]

What kind of balls doesn't work on orcs?

No, wait, don't tell me...

Dragon balls, duh

 

[I'm A Banana]

Agreed. That was one of the most appealing things about the 3.x Sorcerer relative to the Wizard and other prepped casters. You only had to stay committed to your theme at chargen and level up, you weren't tempted to 'break character' every morning.

Not to mention that I'm not a big fan of character option tinkering. If I know fireball I know fireball and having to decide every morning if I want to know fireball or not is...micro-manage-y to me.

What if your theme calls for utility spells or others not on the sorcerer's list?

I think in most cases, "utility caster" is a very broad concept, so I'd recommend getting more specific about which spells those are and why they are necessary for the theme. Like, if Comprehend Languages is the only possible way to realize your...magical....linguist...(D&D has had weirder options, sure), that can make sense. But if you want it because the archetype you're gunning for is "I am magical Batman!", then I'm going to point you over to the wizard.

If we've got a gap then I'd probably say, let's make a new sorcerous origin that can use Sorcery Points to cast that spell as a class feature at Level Whatever, and maybe gets other stuff that builds on that theme.

That the Wizard now casts Spontaneously and has as many slots as the Sorcerer seems to hurt the distinction. The Wizard is far more flexible across days, when able to re-memorizeprepare spells, but just as flexible in a narrower time-frame, when, in 3e, the Sorcerer had an edge.

Converting Sorcery Points to Spell Slots on the fly still gives sorcerers a noticeable edge in on-the-fly adaptability compared with something like Arcane Recovery. I don't need to rest if I need more spells today, I just need to make more magic. And if I think I don't need to make more magic, I can spend it doing other things to my One Size Fits All spell list.

I do like the restriction to a theme, the problem is that 99% of the time my theme is not "a magical murderer"

That's not the only theme you can have with the current sorc. In fact, it's not even a theme I've seen anyone play.
IMXP, there is no character in 5e that is pigeonholed into combat, and this is true of the sorcerer as much as other classes.

The closest is probably our party's OTHER sorcerer, the Dragon Sorcerer, and most of his spells are firebooms, but he's also the party "sage," and focusing on his draconic theme has made him capable of fear and flight as well.

Meanwhile, I'm a halfway-decent scout (well, stats-wise, anyway...character-wise, I'm a crazy gnome, so leaving me alone in a dark tunnel might not be the best idea), and with the highest CHA in the party, I can Intimidate anyone. (I chose not to be the charming type...).

If I want to be a magical thief -as a sorcerer- I would want stuff like unseen servant, TFD, and a knock spell that didn't alerted every single guard within earshot.

Those abilities might be nice to have for a magical thief, but they are not prerequisites, and so lacking them doesn't make you a sub-par or incompetent magical thief. Mage Hand, Dancing Lights, Charm Person, Disguise Self, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Fog Cloud, Jump, Silent Image, and Sleep all compete for the attention of any magical thief worth their tool proficiency.

More broadly, here's the first question I'd ask a player who came to me wanting to play a magical thief sorcerer: what is the magical origin that gave you magical powers of thievery? Dragon magic doesn't seem inherently thief-y (the most stealthy breed of dragon spits acid and corrupts swamps!), and wild magic certainly isn't that subtle. If being a magical thief isn't really connected to the player's unique magical origin, then flavor-wise, they're a better fit for Arcane Trickster or Wizard, anyway (your spells are like your tools, used methodically and precisely).

If being a magical thief was linked to their origin (maybe their origin is that they are cursed by the Plane of Shadow? Sounds good enough!), then I'd probably whip up a subclass for 'em. I've no objection to a stealthy shadow-mage kind of character. And I don't think that these abilities would include any of the spells on your list anyway, because while those are surely fine for a magical thief, they aren't necessary by any stretch of the imagination.

But, the playstyle of a thief is also very close to the playstyle of a wizard - methodical, practiced, with precise, explicit, narrow tools.

If I wanted to be a dimension witch, I would need stuff to actually summon dimensional critters, pocket dimensions -rope trick?- and even someday at some point create magical demiplanes.

Basically, the same responses apply here.

1) Those abilities aren't a prerequisite for the archetype. The archetype does OK without them. (Basically any conjuration or evocation spell can help cement the idea of calling on other dimensions; speed-modification and site and teleportation are also useful).
2) If it was relevant to a magical origin, there's probably a subclass in it. That subclass still might not have those spells. If it's not relevant to a magical origin, don't be a sorcerer.
3) The archetpe of a learned scholar of the planes who pierces the very fabric of reality is much closer in my mind to a scholarly wizard than a spontaneous sorcerer, so while there's room, I don't know that it'd be my first choice.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I guess I have a small way to contribute to this thread. First of all, I love the sorcerer in concept. In play, it leaves much to be desired. As a DM, first of all I always allowed the wild magic sorcerer to use their Wild Magic Surge. And as a result, it allowed the party a means of escape from an inescapable situation by summoning a unicorn. It was awesome.

But I also use my own Wild Magic Surge table that's a lot more fun. It includes things such as:

-Skrillex appears and begins playing super loud, terrible music for the next minute. All creatures within 200 feet are deafened for the duration.

-For the next minute, all your spells with a casting time of 1 action have a casting time of 1 bonus action. Also, you must end each sentence with “giggidy” or you become a frog for an hour. If you become a frog, you take on all statistics of the Giant Frog as listed in the Monster Manual with the exception of your mental statistics and your hit points. All equipment is melded into your new form. In this form you cannot cast spells, but you can talk.

-Caster’s head grows 5 times its normal size, forcing caster to fall prone and reducing speed to 5 feet. This effect lasts for one minute.

-For the rest of the gaming session, you must talk like a pirate. If you fail to talk like a pirate, you have disadvantage on all your saving throws for the rest of the session.

-You shrink one size category and a giant, illusory duck appears which is visible to all. You are frightened of the duck and it chases you until the end of your next turn, at which time you return to normal.

-You can take one additional action immediately. You must make a karate noise before taking this action.

-The spell cast by the caster becomes a Living Spell. Roll a 1d6. On a 5 or 6, the Living Spell is friendly towards the caster and will accept commands for 1 minute before disappearing from existence. Otherwise, Living Spell will attack caster. The DM will choose an elemental most closely associated to the spell. The elemental’s slam attack does damage of the spell’s damage type. On a hit, the elemental’s slam also activates any non-damaging abilities associated with the spell. If the effect requires a saving throw, it using the sorcerer’s spell save DC.

These are effects that can be fun and interesting. I also balanced it so that the number of good, bad, and neutral effects are a equal, meaning the wild magic surge truly can be both blessing and curse.

I also changed Controlled Chaos so the player can choose one or both rolls for their Wild Magic Surge. Finally, I got rid of Spell Bombardment and replaced it with this:

Chromatic Mage
You gain immunity to a random type of damage. In addition, spells you cast using this type of damage pierce the defenses of targets that might normally resist such energies. Those normally immune to the damage type are instead considered resistant to your spells. Those that would normally be resistant take full damage against your spells. This ability is reset and must be rolled after each long rest. Roll a 1d12 and consult the following table.

Wild Magic Resistance

Result Damage Type
1 Acid
2 Cold
3 Fire
4 Force
5 Lightning
6 Necrotic
7 Poison
8 Psychic
9 Radiant
10 Thunder
11 None
12 Roll twice and use both results. Reroll subsequent 12s.

 

[MoonSong]

Not to mention that I'm not a big fan of character option tinkering. If I know fireball I know fireball and having to decide every morning if I want to know fireball or not is...micro-manage-y to me.


I think in most cases, "utility caster" is a very broad concept, so I'd recommend getting more specific about which spells those are and why they are necessary for the theme. Like, if Comprehend Languages is the only possible way to realize your...magical....linguist...(D&D has had weirder options, sure), that can make sense. But if you want it because the archetype you're gunning for is "I am magical Batman!", then I'm going to point you over to the wizard.

If we've got a gap then I'd probably say, let's make a new sorcerous origin that can use Sorcery Points to cast that spell as a class feature at Level Whatever, and maybe gets other stuff that builds on that theme.


Converting Sorcery Points to Spell Slots on the fly still gives sorcerers a noticeable edge in on-the-fly adaptability compared with something like Arcane Recovery. I don't need to rest if I need more spells today, I just need to make more magic. And if I think I don't need to make more magic, I can spend it doing other things to my One Size Fits All spell list.


That's not the only theme you can have with the current sorc. In fact, it's not even a theme I've seen anyone play.
IMXP, there is no character in 5e that is pigeonholed into combat, and this is true of the sorcerer as much as other classes.

The closest is probably our party's OTHER sorcerer, the Dragon Sorcerer, and most of his spells are firebooms, but he's also the party "sage," and focusing on his draconic theme has made him capable of fear and flight as well.

Meanwhile, I'm a halfway-decent scout (well, stats-wise, anyway...character-wise, I'm a crazy gnome, so leaving me alone in a dark tunnel might not be the best idea), and with the highest CHA in the party, I can Intimidate anyone. (I chose not to be the charming type...).


Those abilities might be nice to have for a magical thief, but they are not prerequisites, and so lacking them doesn't make you a sub-par or incompetent magical thief. Mage Hand, Dancing Lights, Charm Person, Disguise Self, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Fog Cloud, Jump, Silent Image, and Sleep all compete for the attention of any magical thief worth their tool proficiency.

More broadly, here's the first question I'd ask a player who came to me wanting to play a magical thief sorcerer: what is the magical origin that gave you magical powers of thievery? Dragon magic doesn't seem inherently thief-y (the most stealthy breed of dragon spits acid and corrupts swamps!), and wild magic certainly isn't that subtle. If being a magical thief isn't really connected to the player's unique magical origin, then flavor-wise, they're a better fit for Arcane Trickster or Wizard, anyway (your spells are like your tools, used methodically and precisely).

If being a magical thief was linked to their origin (maybe their origin is that they are cursed by the Plane of Shadow? Sounds good enough!), then I'd probably whip up a subclass for 'em. I've no objection to a stealthy shadow-mage kind of character. And I don't think that these abilities would include any of the spells on your list anyway, because while those are surely fine for a magical thief, they aren't necessary by any stretch of the imagination.

But, the playstyle of a thief is also very close to the playstyle of a wizard - methodical, practiced, with precise, explicit, narrow tools.


Basically, the same responses apply here.

1) Those abilities aren't a prerequisite for the archetype. The archetype does OK without them. (Basically any conjuration or evocation spell can help cement the idea of calling on other dimensions; speed-modification and site and teleportation are also useful).
2) If it was relevant to a magical origin, there's probably a subclass in it. That subclass still might not have those spells. If it's not relevant to a magical origin, don't be a sorcerer.
3) The archetpe of a learned scholar of the planes who pierces the very fabric of reality is much closer in my mind to a scholarly wizard than a spontaneous sorcerer, so while there's room, I don't know that it'd be my first choice.

I think that the divide we have is you are stuck within the "origin" to define a sorcerer. While I come from "if I'm born with magic as a talent, then the way it will express will be a reflection of my personality and what I do the most." If I spend so much time thieving, my magic will lend itself to thieving. Just the same way that if I'm a seamstress with a magical gift, then my magic will manifest on ways that are related to clothing. Not because I studied it from a dusty tome, but because I apply all of my talents to the things I do and the way I use these talents shapes them.

And this is a double standard, why wizards can casually do these things while a sorcerer that wants to do ONLY those things cannot even do them? How crucial is unseen servant to an evoker wizard or an illusionist? Why restrict sorcerers to only x sanctioned flavors, while for wizards sky is the limit? more so when x=3?

(And who says that only a learned scholar of the planes can affect the fabric between dimensions? why can't my dimensional witch be attuned to the cosmos because her soul just happens to be more sensitive to it?)

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think in most cases, "utility caster" is a very broad concept

Not what I said. I meant, what if your theme calls for some spells not on the sorcerer list. There's more than a few of 'em in 5e, unlike 3e where the list was practically identical to the Wizard's.

My solution, as a DM, is go ahead and work with the player to pick out spells that work for the theme (and the campaign, and won't break anything or overshadow the other PCs). Maybe a bit hands-on/"the game shouldn't 'make' me do it." :shrug: Price of empowerment.

Converting Sorcery Points to Spell Slots on the fly still gives sorcerers a noticeable edge in on-the-fly adaptability compared with something like Arcane Recovery.

Compared to everyone casting spontaneously, I don't find either of those particularly noticeable. Not compared to the spontaneous/prepped divide in 3e, anyway. A prepped caster who hypotheticalloy wanted the greatest possible range of spells available prepped each slot with a different spell, so the second time a spell came up, he didn't have it. The spontaneous caster who held back one top-level slot (and sorcerers started a new spell level with 3 slots, so that wasn't terribly hard) had to option to cast any spell he knew. That was a huge a difference. It's gone.

That's not the only theme you can have with the current sorc. In fact, it's not even a theme I've seen anyone play.

I've seen the odd non-magical murderer, too. ;P

More broadly, here's the first question I'd ask a player who came to me wanting to play a magical thief sorcerer: what is the magical origin that gave you magical powers of thievery?

Not 'what's wrong with arcane trickster?'

Dragon magic doesn't seem inherently thief-y, and wild magic certainly isn't that subtle.

There is a dearth of origins, yes. The whole design conceit of giving every class sub-classes may have backfired a bit, there. The original sorcerer was about as bare-bones as could be, and as a result you could hang just about any heritage or 'origin' you could think of on it. Later they came up with feats, just 'little' 3e feats, that gave you a bloodline and some added spells known.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Even if that is true, why should it matter? After all my suggestion "doesn't significantly affect game balance" anymore than yours does. Surely being able to cast acidball on hordes of orcs more than makes up it not working on pit fiends. On top of that, conceptually it could be a hold over from the original spell ("the natural state of the spell re-emerges when it strikes something with resistance....").

Perhaps I'm missing something with your suggestion, because I don't follow in what way any "making up" is occurring. Casting an 8d6 Acidball on hordes of orcs is not really any different casting an 8d6 Fireball, except that acid is cooler. From a game balance perspective there is no difference at all on the orcs; it doesn't make sense for the Acidball not to work on Pit Fiends; and there is no benefit (from a game design standpoint) to preventing the Acidball from working on the Pit Fiends.

I want Green Dragon Sorcerers at my table to chuck their nerve gas grenades (Poisonballs) because they think it's fun and cool, and I have absolutely no objection if every once in a while it turns out to be beneficial as well for bypassing elemental immunity. Your suggestion would turn it from 80% useless to 100% useless while also degrading suspension of disbelief, and that doesn't seem like a win to me.

In short, I don't like it because it seems a completely unnecessary complication.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Because let's just give Wizards even more than the Sorcerer, neh? If it's a Feat, it's pretty much an Auto-Take for Sorcerers because what else do they have aside from Metmagic in this edition? If that goes, they'd need expanded spell lists and Origins that give massive bonuses.

Kinda like the Wizard Traditions.
Which they also already have. Like Shaped Fireballs. A thing Metamagic can do. Amongst other powerful abilities.




I'm starting to realize why I have played a Wizard a grand total of once, and even then it was a multiclass Bladesinger.

I agree. I just think the sorcerer's thing should be something else, and metamagic should be a feat.

like being able to ignore concentration sometimes, concentrate on two spells at once, or some unique abilities that wizards can't ever learn to do without somehow gaining innate magic (MC), ie abilities that aren't spells. As it is, I feel like the warlock feels more like a sorcerer, mechanically, than the sorcerer does.

 

[Jago]

Well I happen to have quite quite a long history of umm <female dog>ing about the sorcerer in these boards. sometimes even using the same arguments you do, except less informed and more hysterical.

Then by your hilarity and my bookishness, we will attack the Sorcerer until gets a UA too.

I think in most cases, "utility caster" is a very broad concept, so I'd recommend getting more specific about which spells those are and why they are necessary for the theme. Like, if Comprehend Languages is the only possible way to realize your...magical....linguist...(D&D has had weirder options, sure), that can make sense. But if you want it because the archetype you're gunning for is "I am magical Batman!", then I'm going to point you over to the wizard.

If we've got a gap then I'd probably say, let's make a new sorcerous origin that can use Sorcery Points to cast that spell as a class feature at Level Whatever, and maybe gets other stuff that builds on that theme.

But this is part of the issue. The Wizard has a Tradition for every single Magical School in D&D.
The Sorcerer started with 2 Origins and then gained a 3rd after they gutted it. The answer cannot be to just Homebrew because that's Rule 0 Arguments: just because you, yourself, can fix it, is not an excuse for it to be broken in the first place

Converting Sorcery Points to Spell Slots on the fly still gives sorcerers a noticeable edge in on-the-fly adaptability compared with something like Arcane Recovery. I don't need to rest if I need more spells today, I just need to make more magic. And if I think I don't need to make more magic, I can spend it doing other things to my One Size Fits All spell list.

Making more Magic is less impressive when you're just regurgitating the same 5 spells over and over, though. That's not indicative of a class that's pure magic, THAT feels like a Wizard to me: rote and repetitive.

Those abilities might be nice to have for a magical thief, but they are not prerequisites, and so lacking them doesn't make you a sub-par or incompetent magical thief. Mage Hand, Dancing Lights, Charm Person, Disguise Self, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Fog Cloud, Jump, Silent Image, and Sleep all compete for the attention of any magical thief worth their tool proficiency.

More broadly, here's the first question I'd ask a player who came to me wanting to play a magical thief sorcerer: what is the magical origin that gave you magical powers of thievery? Dragon magic doesn't seem inherently thief-y (the most stealthy breed of dragon spits acid and corrupts swamps!), and wild magic certainly isn't that subtle. If being a magical thief isn't really connected to the player's unique magical origin, then flavor-wise, they're a better fit for Arcane Trickster or Wizard, anyway (your spells are like your tools, used methodically and precisely).

If being a magical thief was linked to their origin (maybe their origin is that they are cursed by the Plane of Shadow? Sounds good enough!), then I'd probably whip up a subclass for 'em. I've no objection to a stealthy shadow-mage kind of character. And I don't think that these abilities would include any of the spells on your list anyway, because while those are surely fine for a magical thief, they aren't necessary by any stretch of the imagination.

But, the playstyle of a thief is also very close to the playstyle of a wizard - methodical, practiced, with precise, explicit, narrow tools.

A thief cannot be charming, swindling, flying-by-the-seat-of-their-pants and more, dare I say, Roguish in their manner? The idea of thieves that get by on sheer luck or flash and pizzaz is just as iconic as the methodical burglar, and I feel fits the idea of D&D more.

You also list Eight 1st Level spells to make this Concept work. You'd need to be A Level 7 Sorcerer to have all of those, if you take nothing but 1st Level Spells, so have fun staying behind the power curve that most definitely exists. Again, if I can't make my concept work by Level 3 when everyone else is coming into their Archetype (4 Spells Known), that's a problem. So let's go with Disguise Self, Fog Cloud, Feather Fall, and Sleep. ... No, I'm not getting magical thief from this because I have no other spells that can really help solidify this. And yes, the Arcane Trickster works best
for this, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't work for a Sorcerer. And again, a Wizard knows 10 Spells by this point, if they haven't found any scrolls or books to add to their own spellbook. Meaning a Wizard can do this better.

As for where your Magical Origin comes from, may I direct you to the Elder Scrolls where Nocturnal is a literal Goddess of Thieves​. Most settings have something similar, and again, things like the Plane of Shadow would be appropriate. Or even just like a connection to the very fabric of Luck or Fate or ... something.

1) Those abilities aren't a prerequisite for the archetype. The archetype does OK without them. (Basically any conjuration or evocation spell can help cement the idea of calling on other dimensions; speed-modification and site and teleportation are also useful).
2) If it was relevant to a magical origin, there's probably a subclass in it. That subclass still might not have those spells. If it's not relevant to a magical origin, don't be a sorcerer.
3) The archetpe of a learned scholar of the planes who pierces the very fabric of reality is much closer in my mind to a scholarly wizard than a spontaneous sorcerer, so while there's room, I don't know that it'd be my first choice.

1.) Wizards get a Conjurer and Abjurer School. Meaning Wizards are always going to be superior at this.
2. You're basically saying 'Be a Wizard if you want to follow a theme because their archetypes play to that'. Again, the lack of support is not justifiable by comparison to the Wizard. The answer cannot always be "Create an Archetype". I can play a Paladin as a dozen different things with only 3 Archetypes, and yet the Sorcerer seems shoehorned into a few, select roles and they fail at at least half of them.
3.) Go play 7th Sea, learn some Porte Magic, and watch as the idea of tearing open the very fabric of something like The Weave is very Sorcerer in application. Again, these are people Made Of Magic, I cannot stress enough how their casting should be LEAPS AND BOUNDS AHEAD of any other Arcane Spellcaster, at a cost of some sort. Metamagic is supposed to fulfill that ideal, I suppose, but the lack of spell support just makes that fail on every level.

I agree. I just think the sorcerer's thing should be something else, and metamagic should be a feat.

like being able to ignore concentration sometimes, concentrate on two spells at once, or some unique abilities that wizards can't ever learn to do without somehow gaining innate magic (MC), ie abilities that aren't spells. As it is, I feel like the warlock feels more like a sorcerer, mechanically, than the sorcerer does.

It does! The Warlock is a better freaking Sorcerer than the Sorcerer!

What is happening!!!

 

[Yunru]

Goddess of Thieves as an origin? Oh you must be talking about a Trickery cleric.
Unless the Goddess of Thieves is your mother or something.