Oh I see, so you're just ignoring the part where I specifically call out a divine heritage being a completely plausible Sorcerery origin?
Who's the one being dismissive?
D&D 5E Is the major thing that's disappointing about Sorcerers is the lack of sorcery point options?
- Thread starter Kobold Avenger
- Start date
Who's the one being dismissive?
Leatherhead
Possibly a Idiot.
To be fair, Sorcerers could be a experiment or cursed with magic sometime after you were born too.
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Touché. I guess more "inherent" than "born with".
MoonSong
Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
How is innate magic necessarily translates to "my great great step-aunt three times removed was a dragon"? Originally the sorcerer was "I just do magic ok?, I don't know why or how -or care to know- I just do." It was never a bland class, it was a blank state about the origin, which kind of made it more mysterious and open to interpretation, so far no description on the sorcerer has been more evocative to me than the intro to the original sorcerer. And the class mostly delivered -it didn't turn bland until certain hateful designer decided to give uber toys to wizards and force sorcerers to be more like wizards to get the nice stuff in the later splat- all it needed was more love to reinforce the basic flavor.
Nowadays the origin of the magic has overtaken the individuality of the sorcerers, that couple with limited customization and limited origins available means the class is more bland than ever.
Originally doesn't matter, past edition bias is irrelevant. A class that you have to fill out all the details of can't be an interesting class: there's nothing there to be interesting.
Then we will have to agree to disagree, here. As a Core Class, I feel Metamagic alone does not really set them apart from:
- Warlocks basically getting free spells and mini-meta from Invocations, on top of recharging every short rest so they're basically always locked and loaded, and bonus spells from their Patron.
- Bards getting a ton of core features that allow them to remain incredibly flexible and yet they can narrow into a focus (such as Magical Thief or Magus) and then the ability to cherry-pick spells from anyone's list, as well as the win that is Bardic Inspiration
- And the sheer vast amount of spells a Wizard is going to know on top of Arcane Recovery which I feel is on par with Sorcery Points since you're eating through those to rechannel spell slots and fuel your metamagic, whereas a Wizard just ... does it. even their Capstone abilities of Spell Mastery and Signature Spells are way better than "Here's some extra Sorcery Points".
On top of this, while the Warlock doesn't get Rituals because they refresh every short rest, the Bard and the Wizard do, saving even further on those precious spell slots that a Sorcerer is burning through post haste because they're not a Ritual Caster and they have to burn Sorcery Points to recovery Spell Slots. Points they need to fuel Metamagic.
I know I keep going back to the Wizard, but the Wizard really is the direct comparison.
You want to play a Summoner? Sorcerer cannot do this effectively, so play a Wizard. You want to play an Enchanter? Sorcerer pales compared to Bard, Archfey Warlock, and Wizard. Even a Wizard Evoker basically gets the Careful Spell Metamagic for free with Sculpt Spells, without spending Sorcery Points, and that specifically states that creatures that auto-save at your choice take no damage, where Careful Spell does not say this.
If I want to play an Enchanter, or Illusionist, and Bard, Warlock, and Wizard can do this effectively but Sorcerer cannot, that's an issue. 3/4 can with very little difficulty. By 3rd Level, the Bard knows 6 Spells compared to the Sorcerer's 4. Six! And Rituals! Sure, the Sorcerer gains 2 more Cantrips, but that's ... not really an equal trade.
Sure, Metamagic allows pure, raw damage potential. Empowered Spell can be combined with any other option, that's cool. But no other options can be combined. What about Subtle Twinned? Or Quickened Heightened? You already have a tiny reservoir of power that needs to do a lot of things, why not at least let us go wild with it? Aside from the Blaster Mage, the Sorcerer cannot do most other things effectively. They can attempt these things, like noted with a "Magical Thief" build of needing 7 spells to make it work, which a Sorcerer won't have until 6th Level and that's if they're basically wasting all their spell choices on 1st Level Spells ... But again, that's an attempt. Those same 7 Spells, the Wizards knows at Level 2. And he specialized further in being really, really good at those spells.
Metamagic alone is not a saving grace, and if you took it away, the class is basically shattered.
Take away a Fighter's Action Surge and Second Wind, and they're still a workable, decent Class that can serve in many roles. Or hell, get rid of every Wizard Arcane Tradition, and they're still a workable, decent Class. Metamagic is literally all the Sorcerer has going for it to give it an edge, and in the end it's still blunted compared to the others.
I know I'm basically complaining a lot, but I do like a lot of the solutions posited here, and I think a few, key changes would help give the class some better groundings.
1.) No need for a Focus. Sorcerers cast from themselves, not through a stick or a necklace.
2.) Each Origin should provide bonus spells that do not count against Spells Known, flavoring the Origin further. Storm should have kept their stuff like Thunderwave and Chain Lightning. Draconic should have spells like Fly and things related to their element. Wild Mage should... be Wild. Someone said the idea of like rolling for Wild Mage bonus spells, I kinda like that. I don't like the Wild Mage, but the extra spells would at least allow more diversity. If just knowing the spells is too powerful, at least do like the Warlock and put them on the list to be available so they have the option to grab things like Faerie Fire or Dissonant Whispers.
3.) More Sorcery Points. If the key feature of the Class is Metamagic and Flexible Casting, Sorcerers should be starting with 4 of these suckers and going from there, allowing them to recover 2 1st Level spells out the door. If they're being stymied by the idea of "My spell list is small" and bonus spells are considered too powerful or unbalancing, then at least let the class fire more times than any other. There's something to be said for Flexible Casting when you know you can get off another casting of Invisibility or being confident that you can Quicken your Scorching Ray quite a few times per day.
4.) Better Metamagic Uses, as the OP started this thread with. If we get more Sorcery Points, allow better combinations of Metamagic. Subtle Distant, or Extended Heightened. I don't really see these as inherently gamebreaking options and hell, they're burning through a limited resource anyway. But this allows for that expansion of concepts without needing to add in a bunch of Bonus Spells (again, if that is considered unbalancing), because yeah, now I can totally play a Summoner with Quickened Extended creatures, or a Magical Thief with Subtle Distant applications of Sleep and Mage Hand, or Extended Quickened Twinned Invisibility.
I've waxed on a bit, and I'm not trying to start an argument or the like: I do apologize if I am coming off strongly. I speak with passion and I don't mean to ruffle any feathers or the like.
But, I cannot agree that the Sorcerer as a Class is a viable option for many builds when compared to our other Arcane Full Casters. They just have so little going for them and I don't think the limited spell selection, limited spells known, and lackluster Class features are offset by Metamagic and a very limited pool of Sorcery Points.
Miladoon
First Post
I think Metamagic and Font of Magic or strong enough to warrant a cropped spell list. Its like amateur night at spell club, and the arcanists are enjoying casting up slotted spells. Then in walks the sorceress and then the real magic begins.
Can a Warlock (effectively) break the Concentration limit with just a few Sorcery points? No he cannot.
Can a Wizard for disadvantage on saving throws against his spells? No he cannot.
Can the Bard reroll all those 1s when he casts that big AoE? No he cannot.
Your argument about fighters and action surges just doesn't work: A sorcerer without metamagic is just as effective as a fighter without extra attack. In each case they still have their full compliment of attacks, they still have their other defining features, they're both just down one part. Removing metamagic from the Sorcerer doesn't make it worse than, say, a Bard without Magical Secrets.
Can a Wizard for disadvantage on saving throws against his spells? No he cannot.
Can the Bard reroll all those 1s when he casts that big AoE? No he cannot.
Your argument about fighters and action surges just doesn't work: A sorcerer without metamagic is just as effective as a fighter without extra attack. In each case they still have their full compliment of attacks, they still have their other defining features, they're both just down one part. Removing metamagic from the Sorcerer doesn't make it worse than, say, a Bard without Magical Secrets.
abirdcall
(she/her)
Warlocks have much fewer spells per day than Sorcerers. Their only advantage with spell slots is that they get more slots of higher level. With 2 short rests they only get up to 6 spells/long rest up to level 10.
The bonus spells from their patron add to their spell list, not to their spells known. Warlocks and Sorcerers have basically the same amount of spells known. Sorcerers also know more cantrips. The Sorcerer spell list is much larger than the Warlock spell list, even after adding the bonus patron spells.
Invocations are good, though their free spells are quite limited.
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Helldritch
Hero
I absolutely see no problem with the sorcer save one. It lacks option.
UA gave us one more.
The SCAG gave us an other.
Personnaly, I do like SCAG sorcerer and I can envision more on that theme. From a storm, to a cold, or whatever element they can come up with.
The wild magic sorcerer just need more wild magic tables to roll from as the one in the PHB is a bit meh... But otherwise, it is ok. After we added a few more tables (and we roll which table) it became quite fun to see what would happen. But then again. It was not really a problem with the sorcerer itself but it was more of a small annoyance.
Give the sorcerer more origins and we'll have something going on for the class. Wiz will come up with some more as the game gets more matured and that different communities give input to Wiz.
UA gave us one more.
The SCAG gave us an other.
Personnaly, I do like SCAG sorcerer and I can envision more on that theme. From a storm, to a cold, or whatever element they can come up with.
The wild magic sorcerer just need more wild magic tables to roll from as the one in the PHB is a bit meh... But otherwise, it is ok. After we added a few more tables (and we roll which table) it became quite fun to see what would happen. But then again. It was not really a problem with the sorcerer itself but it was more of a small annoyance.
Give the sorcerer more origins and we'll have something going on for the class. Wiz will come up with some more as the game gets more matured and that different communities give input to Wiz.
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