D&D 5E Is the major thing that's disappointing about Sorcerers is the lack of sorcery point options?

[Jago]

Why isn't homebrew an option? Do you play AL? Is your DM hardcoded to only use official content?

Also, the answer isn't consistently find another class, perhaps you should look at the options available for the sorcerer and see what you can build, I've already said that I was able to fit a sorcerer around the concept of a sorcerous thief, it really wasn't that hard to do, others have been able to do so as well. I'm sorry that WotC hasn't released every possible bloodline for the sorcerer class so that you can build exactly the character you want, perhaps they will with their next big mechanics release next year (assuming it comes out next year), but until then, yes, you do need to "apply a patch" create a subclass or adapt another class.

95% of the time, I am the DM. I've never played AL. Homebrew is always an option but it is not optimal. Just because you can tweak and homebrew to your heart's content does not mean that what we were given isn't flawed. On the contrary, the very nature that I would HAVE to in order to make many concepts come to light should be indicative of the issue.

In the age old words of wisdom, I will do it, But I won't like it.

Your "magical thief" is not a magical thief. It is an Arcane-Trickster Lite. Yes, Magical Thief is what the AT does, but they do so from a Rogue's perspective. You should be able to do so from the Sorcerer's perspective and you cannot: your spell selection is simply too limited to replicate by magic what a Rogue can by skill, not without severely hampering your ability to do pretty much anything else. You get 4 spells at Level 3, the general Archetype level. 4.

The Wizard has 10. And can cast just as many times per day, even factoring in Sorcery Points and Arcane Recovery.

The Arcane Trickster knows 3 spells and 3 Cantrips, 1 below the Sorcerer. They also have all the Rogue Features of a 3rd level Rogue on top of all that, so what they cannot do by Magic, they definitely can by skill. Dash and Hide and usually a great Stealth Score and even invisible Mage Hand.

The Sorcerer cannot replicate the Wizard's larger spell selection by this point and basically never will. She also (generally) lacks the skills necessary to overcome her spellcasting deficiencies, unlike the Wizard who can usually supplement or complement his skills with his spells.

4 spells, mate. What, Invisibility, Disguise Self, uhm ... Feather Fall or possibly Jump, and then Sleep, I guess? Or Silent Image in there. Somewhere.

The Wizard has all of that. And Unseen Servant. And Tenser's Floating Disk. And Alarm. And Silent Image. And Color Spray. And Grease.

The Wizard's spell selection lets him overcome what he lacks in Skill: he can just magic up a solution here. Give him the Criminal Background and he is an inherently better representation of a "Magical Thief" than the Sorcerer could fit the concept. The only leg up a Sorcerer may have is Subtle Spell for extra quietness, but that costs those precious Sorcery Points to pull off.

The lack of Origins would not be so bothersome if the Wizard didn't literally get 8, 9 with SCAG. Even the Cleric, the Divine Comparison, has 7, 8 with SCAG.

The Sorcerer got 2. At least they got a SCAG upgrade unlike the lonely Druid who still only has 2.

But 2? Really? For a Class that is usually all about the 31 Flavors?

The Class is just not a good class, mate. There are issues with it and yes, I hope new releases address that. But seeing that the UA Storm Sorc got bonus spells but the "final release" SCAG one did not because that inherently makes it better than the ones in the PHB leaves me fearing that they won't want to "overpower" the Sorc by adding in things it needs (like better spell selection), and therefore they ignore how woefully underpowered it is to the Wizard, their direct comparison. I don't need dozens of Origins if the base class and base Archetypes were worthwhile to begin with; I'm not trying to adjust Paladins and Wizards, after all.

Sorcerer and Wizard should be equal. They should be mechanically and thematically different, but of a similar power.

And they're not.

 

[Yunru]

Why?

What even is the impulse to dismiss people's ideas like this?

In what world does it make sense for the only representation of a character blessed by the goddess of theives to be the trickery cleric?

Heck, ignoring the thematic problems with that, what about people who don't like the cleric? What about people who want to play a god touched character, not a servant of the gods?

Because Sorcerers are all about blood, they're not just granted powers as you suggested, they're born with it.

Being granted powers from on high means your character's either a Cleric or Warlock. Them's the breaks.

Sure, they should hurry up with Favoured Soul and the likes, but the Sorcerer is not the bland class of 3.X, it has it's own concept space, that of inate magic that you are born with.

 

[Kryx]

Metamagic was a lousy fit for Sorcerers. Everything about metamagics scream "analytical mind", which is exactly what sorcerers aren't. If there was one class to give metamagics to, it is Wizards. (Or, perhaps even better, Psions)

But generally I wish metamagic was kept as a standalone subsystem, not tied to any one class.

We're already on the 7th lpage, but you may enjoy my Sorcerer Rework and Metamagic Feats then!

 

[Hussar]

If a wizard makes a better magical thief, what's the problem? Why does a sorc class necessarily have to be able to handle all concepts?

After all, you sorc still uses spell components. How is that different than a cleric?

 

[Jago]

If a wizard makes a better magical thief, what's the problem? Why does a sorc class necessarily have to be able to handle all concepts?

After all, you sorc still uses spell components. How is that different than a cleric?

They do not need to be able to handle all concepts, but there is clearly more diversity in design from the By The Book spellcasters than from the "Apparently my Great, Great, Great Grandfather was a Marid." spellcasters. That just does not jive with me when "Wild Mage" is supposed to cover everything from a Fey Ancestry to magical experimentaction gone wrong, when the Wizard has an Archetype for every single style of magic.

It's not just the Magical Thief, it's the idea that with a limited amount of spells known and a limited Spell List, there literally is only so much you can do with the Class. Even the Fighter can at least use all arms and armor equally to create both a dashing Musketeer or a heavily-armored Knight.

The fact that Cleric, Warlock, and Wizard have far more diversity of design and capability than the "My blood is magic" class is poor design. And to bring up the idea that using components means there's no difference...

So then Bard is Druid is Warlock? I mean, they're all Spellcasters, they all use components, right?
But we know they are different. They feel entirely different and can cover a wide variety of themes. I think I've yet to play a bard who is a legit minstrel, there's so much you can do with the class and spell list, and they even wind up getting more spell selection than the Sorcerer.

Again. The class whose very Origins are magical and fantastic in nature. Who share a connection to magic stronger than any other Class, thematically.

But to address that, no: a Sorcerer should not need components. They shouldn't need to wave a wand or chant over a crystal ball to make the magic happen, and that alone would start to distinguish them from just playing a reflavored Cleric or Warlock.

 

[Yunru]

You argue all this but don't take your own advice. Yes the Bard can be almost anything, especially with a little refluffing. And for that very reason the sorcerer doesn't need to do everything.

Want a Sorcerer Thief? Be a Trickery Cleric and refluff, or an Arcane Trickster and refluff or an Arcane Trickster/Sorcerer multiclass, or just take "thiefy" spells and be a pute Sorcerer. Saying you can't play a Sorcerer Thief because the Sorcerer doesn't have a thier subclass is just not true.

 

[Jago]

I never said I wanted a Thief Subclass. I'm saying that with limited spell selection and spells known, a Sorcerer is an inherently less-diverse class than pretty much any other Full Caster in the game.

I even said quite clearly before that I don't think dozens of Origins are necessary if the Core Class was mechanically good enough to represent the "Arcane Blood" theme, and and I feel that the Core Class does not work.

I guess I need to confirm: are you saying that the Sorcerer needs no adjustments whatsoever and that it is a good class out the door? On par with our other Arcane Full Casters?

 

[Blue]

I'd change that a little bit. Having the ability to cast a full range of elements to seek out vulnerabilities, and to change all to a favored type that you've taken a feat that lets you cut through resistance and up damage seems a bit too widespread to be thematic.

Where do you get the "up damage" part? A Black Dragon Sorcerer gets no damage bonus to Acidball, in the text I wrote. Hence the word "instead."

From the Elemental Adept feat I mentioned. It allows you to ignore resistance and also increases damage by turnign 1 to 2s. Have a point per die on average, but more importantly it double the floor so you don't have trivial damage rolls.

"Must" instead of "may" wouldn't be that big of a turnoff, although presumably in that case you'd put the damage bonus back in place. After all, the whole point of being a Black Dragon Sorcerer would be "to spew acid indiscriminately all over everything, all the time."

Absolutely put the damage back. And the "must" is the important part to me. Thematically, why is your storm sorcerer throwing fire? Keep fireball on the list instead of making lots of copycat spells of different elements, but now it's thunderball (for Bond fans) or ball lightning, or acidwash. On a balance side, having a full spectrum of whatever damage types to go vulnerability hunting AND can turn to a type that will ignore resistances seems a bit much, so this is a power and a tradeoff.

Actually, I'd probably make the feat part of the sorcerer base class at that point. Or at least at a lesser level, like ignore resistances if they fail the save.

 

[Yunru]

I never said I wanted a Thief Subclass. I'm saying that with limited spell selection and spells known, a Sorcerer is an inherently less-diverse class than pretty much any other Full Caster in the game.

I even said quite clearly before that I don't think dozens of Origins are necessary if the Core Class was mechanically good enough to represent the "Arcane Blood" theme, and and I feel that the Core Class does not work.

I guess I need to confirm: are you saying that the Sorcerer needs no adjustments whatsoever and that it is a good class out the door? On par with our other Arcane Full Casters?

On par? I'd say Sorcerer's are better than the other casters (except maybe the Warlock). They can do things that no other spellcaster can. Sure I might not have many spells, but my spells will always have an edge over everyone else's thanks to metamagic.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Because Sorcerers are all about blood, they're not just granted powers as you suggested, they're born with it.

Being granted powers from on high means your character's either a Cleric or Warlock. Them's the breaks.

Sure, they should hurry up with Favoured Soul and the likes, but the Sorcerer is not the bland class of 3.X, it has it's own concept space, that of inate magic that you are born with.

No. there is no reason a character couldn't be born with divine power, whether from divine ancestry or simply because the gods chose them at birth for something, or whatever. Innate magic isn't counter to the concept you responded to with such completely unecessary negativity.

More importantly, you aren't he arbiter of, well, anything, so in this whole exchange, you are just being a dismissive jerk for no reason.