New Sorcerer Archetype: Instinctual

[FormerlyHemlock]

[MENTION=6855130]Jago[/MENTION],

1.) I don't have a problem with making Subtle Spell redundant for this archetype; after all, Mage Armor is (almost) redundant for a Dragon Sorcerer, and Heighten Spell is kind of redundant for a Wild Sorcerer (it's not redundant because you can stack Heighten + Bend Luck, but Bend Luck is almost strictly better than Heighten).

2.) All right, let's rephrase it as "When you are in your own body and form, you can convert HP to sorcery points as a bonus action on a 1:1 basis up to your normal sorcery point maximum." Strictly speaking that's redundant, because the Sorcery Points feature already says "You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level," but one thing I've learned from the 5E PHB's poor writing is that there is absolutely no harm in repeating a rule text for clarity.

And yes, you're interpreting my intent for HP Max correctly. Perhaps that needs a rephrase or a rule rewrite to be simpler?

3.) The Feeblemind is supposed to be the equivalent of a Staff of the Magi's Retributive Strike--but it will almost never come into play, because you just won't eat magic when you're already full. I'm therefore not too concerned about the harshness. I'm more concerned about effects on campaign playstyle, e.g. if suddenly no one ever plays any spellcaster except a Fighter 2/Instinctive Sorcerer X multiclass, I would consider that a problem. But I don't think Magic Eater is good enough to create that effect.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I'm more concerned about the 1 for 1 trade of hit points for sorcery points. That seems way too good, especially at mid and high levels.

I don't foresee all the sorcerers suddenly turning into Instinctual Sorcerers in hopes of burning HP for sorcery points (BTW remember that reducing max HP also brings you closer to insta-kill territory), when they can get the same benefit of bankable sorcery points simply by multiclassing two levels of warlock and (ab)using short rests while everyone else is long-resting. Instead of banking HP, you bank sorcerer spell slots (warlock slots -> sorcery points -> sorcerer slots, which last until your next long rest), and then turn them back into sorcery points when needed.

If Instinctual Sorcerers were an option, how would that change the way you play the game?

 

[Tony Vargas]

I confess to being somewhat inspired by the Dresden Files, and the Archive's ability to do two separate spells on each hand simultaneously.

Cool. Casting two different spells at once (instead of twinning) might be a way to evoke that. Maybe the capstone could be some kind of rule-breaking extension of the usual metamagic (EPIC Meta-Maaagic...). Not just twin, but cast two different spells, being only one possibility?

Edit: Brainstorming on the idea for each type of metamagic:

Careful: The chosen creatures are completely unaffected by the spell.
Distant: The range becomes LoS
Empowered: The dice are maximized.
Extend: You can make a spell permanent - until you regain the sorcery point used extend it.
Heightened: Auto failure instead of disadvantage.
Quickened: When you cast a Quickened spell, you can use your action to cast any spell of lower level that has a casting time of one action, rather than only a cantrip.
Twinned: You can cast two different spells, the sp cost is the level of the higher spell. You can make yourself the target of both spells, if desired. If both spells require concentration, you can maintain them both as if they were a single spell.

I'd also be fine with substituting "learn two spells from any spell list; these don't count against your spells known and cannot be swapped out" instead of the concentration thing as the 18th level ability.

Yeah, capstones aren't a big deal for establishing concept since they come so late. Tickling out unusual spell choices should be more foundational. Maybe some fraction of spells being allowed from other lists? Like, you can pick a first level spell from another list as known spells after you know at least two 1st level and one 2nd level Sorcerer spell that fit the same 'theme' (DM judgement required). Could be part of Instinctual Magic - which could be softened to 'using only one component of your choice' rather than no components, to avoid stepping on sensitive psoinic toes, as well?

Maybe instead of breaking concentration rules, lift the limit to cantrips when you cast a bonus action spell?

Also pretty major, but, at 18th, nothing to be too worried about on balance/playability concerns. Capstones are more there to look cool, anyway.

 

[Cognomen's Cassowary]

Are there any sorcerer spells where this would actually be an issue? I couldn't think of any except Stoneskin, and "free Stoneskin" doesn't seem problematic because most people simply eschew it as not worth 100 gp in the first place.

Chromatic orb leaps to mind. Clairvoyance, circle of death, teleportation circle, plane shift, gate. If the demon-summoning spells from UA ever became official, removing their material costs would probably break the game.

 

[Mercule]

With all the talk of the new Mystic, I've revisited my thoughts on Psionics -- which I've always viewed as being the power source for inherent magic. In 5E, the Sorcerer is explicitly supposed to fill this role, but the use of traditional VSM components is, frankly, stupid for a class that's born to magic.

I'm going to set aside the fact that none of the existing archetypes really represent "Oh, hey, I was born with magic for some odd reason." (Other than the wild mage, which I abhor for various reasons.)

Looking at the VSM, they're irrelevant 90% of the time. Unless the M is expensive, the component pouch makes it irrelevant other than the ability to disarm casters. Aside from this "disarming", V mainly serves to indicate that "I'm doing magic" and S mainly serves to prevent sword-and-board or swords akimbo while flicking fireballs. Reasonable, but probably unnecessary. So, there's an extremely thin line of balance around being able to throw a caster in a cell, interrogate them, or otherwise interact without them casting at you. I actually appreciate that line, though, so don't want to completely get rid of it.

So, let's look at the V and S components. The rules do indicate that these are supposed to be mystical words and gestures. There's no reason beyond flavor they have to be, though. Many, many settings with wizards (Dresden Files and Mage: The Ascension spring immediately to mind) explicitly state that magic is more an act of will, but the words and gestures help to focus. Dresden, specifically, has crappy Latin but it all still works for him. So, there's no reason a Sorcerer actually needs to be using the same words or gestures as a Wizard casting the same spell. Actually, there's no reason why they need to use the same words and gestures from casting to casting. Casting a fire bolt may be nothing more than saying, "Burn, you stupid orc," and pointing at him -- I defy anyone watching a racing game and leaning to the side to deny the involuntary movements for things like that.

The Sorcerer may still tend toward using words and gestures in the same circumstances as a Wizard would, but that doesn't mean they have to. Their metamagic ability allow them to learn to forego these things. It's just a matter of curbing human nature.

That's a long lead to actual feedback.

First, I think we do need an instinctual Sorcerer kit of some sort. So, kudos for putting one together.

Second, and most related to the above wall of text, I don't think the first level power is actually necessary. All you need is a ribbon ability (maybe applicable to all Sorcerer lines) that summarizes what I said about non-standard components. Maybe the right 1st level power is to let them treat their lineage as a spell component pouch or focus. It's pretty minor, but it certainly makes sense. Expensive components actually represent something and shouldn't be nullified lightly, either mechanically of fluff-wise.

6th level: I do like the idea of being able to convert health to sorcery points. Seems very right. The specific wording seems a bit wonky, but in the right ballpark.

14th level: I don't like this without having to use dispel magic, counterspell, or some such. Maybe add one or both of those spells to their list without additional cost. I do like the idea, though. I had a write-up of something similar that I think got eaten by the database issue.

18th level: This, I see as what a generalist Wizard kit would grant. I think concentration is a very important balancing factor, so don't want to see it available to more than one option, ever. Obviously, though, I like the idea. Just not for Sorcerer.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Cool. Casting two different spells at once (instead of twinning) might be a way to evoke that. Maybe the capstone could be some kind of rule-breaking extension of the usual metamagic (EPIC Meta-Maaagic...). Not just twin, but cast two different spells, being only one possibility?

I'm not opposed to that. In fact, double-casting was my original intention (because Action Surge clearly establishes that double casting is valuable but not game-breaking), and it wasn't until I actually wrote out the fluff text that I decided it sounded more like double concentration than double casting. But really I don't have a strong opinion either way.

Yeah, capstones aren't a big deal for establishing concept since they come so late. Tickling out unusual spell choices should be more foundational. Maybe some fraction of spells being allowed from other lists? Like, you can pick a first level spell from another list as known spells after you know at least two 1st level and one 2nd level Sorcerer spell that fit the same 'theme' (DM judgement required). Could be part of Instinctual Magic - which could be softened to 'using only one component of your choice' rather than no components, to avoid stepping on sensitive psoinic toes, as well?

Also pretty major, but, at 18th, nothing to be too worried about on balance/playability concerns. Capstones are more there to look cool, anyway.

I think capstones and near-capstones are important primarily as temptations/aspirations. The fact that a Moon Druid can become an Onion Druid is an excellent reason not to multiclass a level or two of Rogue or Barbarian! Likewise, it's really painful as a Bard to take more than two levels of any other class, because then you lose all hope of Wish. The Fighter capstone is excellent too (IMO), but you can make up the damage by multiclassing Rogue, so Fighter 11/Swashbuckler 9 is a viable competitor IMO to Fighter 20. Ideally, I'd like all the capstones in the game to be good enough that it's always a painful dilemma to multiclass at all.

Anyway, if you're going to do something as foundational as "let the sorcerer pick from other spell lists," I'd actually rather build that into the base sorcerer chassis as a variant rule than into a subclass. It just doesn't feel like a subclass thing to me--it feels like a statement about sorcerers in general, which perhaps ought to be its own thread, but I'll throw out an idea anyway:

What if each sorcerer picks a school of magic as his focus, and is then able to learn spells freely from that school, from any class list? BTW that would interact poorly with the proposal in this thread--I would definitely rewrite Instinctive Magic at any table where this were a thing.

That makes the Sorcerer kind of the Warlock in that it would have two separate decision points: origin and focus, akin to the warlock's pact and boon. The intent would be to open up sorcerer versatility wide open ("there's nothing that a sorcerer can't do, in principle") while still keeping actual restrictions on PCs tight enough to avoid overshadowing bards and wizards. Any given sorcerer is still only going to have maybe 25% of the spells they'd really like to have on their list, but you no longer have to answer the question "why is summoning with sorcery inexplicably not a thing?"

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Chromatic orb leaps to mind. Clairvoyance, circle of death, teleportation circle, plane shift, gate. If the demon-summoning spells from UA ever became official, removing their material costs would probably break the game.

I don't know the demon-summoning spells. In what way do you foresee componentless Clairvoyance/Circle of Death/Teleportation Circle/Plane Shift/Gate causing issues? With the sole exception of Teleportation Circle, none of those spells have consumable components anyway. If componentless Gate would break a game, then your game is only 5000 gp away from breaking, as soon as someone gets their hands on the components for regular Gate.

I actually expect componentless Major Image to be a much bigger deal in practice.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Anyway, if you're going to do something as foundational as "let the sorcerer pick from other spell lists," I'd actually rather build that into the base sorcerer chassis as a variant rule than into a subclass. It just doesn't feel like a subclass thing to me--it feels like a statement about sorcerers in general

I can see that.

which perhaps ought to be its own thread, but I'll throw out an idea anyway:

What if each sorcerer picks a school of magic as his focus, and is then able to learn spells freely from that school, from any class list?

That's a bit more wide open, since the spells within a school can be pretty varied, but it'd certainly establish the class as a bit of a wildcard.

BTW that would interact poorly with the proposal in this thread--I would definitely rewrite Instinctive Magic at any table where this were a thing.

What would the problem be?

The intent would be to open up sorcerer versatility wide open ("there's nothing that a sorcerer can't do, in principle") while still keeping actual restrictions on PCs tight enough to avoid overshadowing bards and wizards.

Limited spells known would keep them from overshadowing the wizard, and the bard (and Sorcerer and Druid and Cleric &c) has plenty of abilities over and above spellcasting.

 

[Jago]

3.) The Feeblemind is supposed to be the equivalent of a Staff of the Magi's Retributive Strike--but it will almost never come into play, because you just won't eat magic when you're already full. I'm therefore not too concerned about the harshness. I'm more concerned about effects on campaign playstyle, e.g. if suddenly no one ever plays any spellcaster except a Fighter 2/Instinctive Sorcerer X multiclass, I would consider that a problem. But I don't think Magic Eater is good enough to create that effect.

I'm good on what you said in Points 1 and 2, however.

Is not a Staff of the Magi like a Legendary (and Optional) Item? You're incorporating a setback from a Legendary Item into what feels like a feature that should be used rather frequently when encountering Spellcasters.

Also, yes, you won't eat Magic when you're at your Sorcery Point Cap, but what about if you don't know what the spell being cast is, you just instinctively (see what I did there?) "I eat it!", and that puts you only 1 or 2 points over your Max? And then fail an Int Save that you are, again, not that good at?

I get the idea of punishing the idea of just trying to stay at your SP cap without relying on the Made of Magic feature, which should be used a lot more often, it seems. But Feeblemind basically ends your character. 30 days of a 1 Charisma, your primary stat, if you fail the Save? 30 days or a 5th Level spell from a Divine Caster if one happens to be in the party, which is not a guarantee? Hell, a Cleric makes this setback trivial, but the absence of one makes this devastating. All because you accidentally absorbed a Chain Lightning when you thought it was Lightning Bolt?

Again, not only does this give you back SP, but it's defensive, it stops you from taking XdX damage or a debilitating effect like Blind. I'd honestly rather a punishment, a lesser punishment, but making this like a once per Short / Long Rest kinda deal rather than "You can do this forever but you basically write yourself out of the game if you misjudge". I wouldn't have such an issue with this if no other class (to my knowledge) actively hurt you like this.

For comparison, Spell Thief at 17th Level for Arcane Tricksters, gives a similar, not equal, but similar ability once per Long Rest, and the punishment for not getting that ability off is that you just take the force of the Spell (with the added caveat that if it's like Fireball or the like, Rogues can Evasion their way out and basically avoid any negative consequences).

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

What would the problem be?

Planar Binding springs to mind. It's normally a way of turning gold into power, but if it becomes a sorcerer spell, then Instinctive Casting (as written in the OP) would allow you to create power from nothing. Suddenly, Warlock 5/Sorcerer 9 (Conjuration)/Necromancer 6 is the ultimate minion-mancer, able to create arbitrarily large armies of elementals, fey, and supercharged undead.