D&D 5E Do DM's feel that Sharpshooter & Great Weapon Master overpowered?

[Kryx]

The big aspect often overlooked is the AC of enemies. The average is quite low in 5e and I suspect most people think it is much higher than it is. DMG 274's AC numbers line up very closely with actual averages. And if we use those numbers (which we should as we're talking about balance of the game, not balance of our home game), then the resulting damage is rather significantly higher. Up to 60% more damage with the builds that can achieve advantage themselves.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Look CapnZapp, I line up w/you 90% on the feat issue, and would love to be proven wrong in my assessment that GWM is NOT overpowered - but I think you are wrong on this. So please ponder, evaluate, and respond directly to this point and tell me what I am missing:

Except in EXTREME situations, there will always be 5 pips on the d20 that miss BECAUSE GWM is turned on - they might be DIFFERENT pips when you are buffed, but they are still misses directly as a result of turning GWM on. That means that regardless of buffs, you ALWAYS lose 25% of your standard average damage EVERY TIME you utilize this feat - BUFFS OR NO BUFFS, mitigation or no mitigation. AND - you never gain more than your chance to hit x10 extra damage to begin with. The idea that buff mitigation somehow changes this is therefore, unless I am missing something, a fallacy. In order for it to be a factor, you would have to have so many buffs that your target to hit # goes below 5 WHEN GWM is on, something that shouldn't really ever happen in a competitive game.

Together, this means that on average, regardless of buffs, GWM gives you a maximum of +4 average damage, and even that is situational - namely when you are facing low ACs (or that potential +4 damage buff goes down some, even if buffed).

That's not actually true, though, because there's a floor, and that floor means that there's a window where the -5 doesn't represent an actual 5 point spread on the d20 where you miss.

Take a level 8 archer, for instance. Assuming only one ASI, that's an 18 dex, +3 proficiency, archery style, and a +1 weapon for giggles. That's a +10 bonus to attack. This means that the floor for this character is AC 12. Let me explain a moment what I mean by floor. The floor is the AC where no bonus helps, because it's unnecessary. Since the character always misses on a 1, you take the 2 that doesn't miss, and that plus the attack bonus is AC 12. No bless or extra bonus will improve the chance to hit AC 12 or lower - the miss chance, even if you roll a 4 on your bless dice and a 12 on your bard's loaned die (he's level 20, very helpful) will always be 5% -- the chance you roll a 1.

So, then, let's look at this from what this character picks for their ASI at 8th. On the one hand, you can go for a 20 DEX. That pushes the floor to AC 13. Or you can pick up Sharpshooter and your floor stays at 12. If you use the -5/+10, your floor drops to 7, which isn't interesting because only a handful of monsters have a 7 AC or worse. So, at this point, it's absolutely true that you have 6 points less spread on the d20 to hit an AC 13 (the -5 and the +1 from the loss of increased DEX). But it's -5 at AC 12, -4 at AC 11, -3 at AC 10, etc., so that doesn't hold universally -- there are ACs at which the -5 doesn't hold to a strict 5 point spread. But wait, there's more! For every point of bonus, that spread shrinks for the sharpshooter but doesn't for the DEX 20 shooter for all ACs less than 14. A 4 rolled on a bless ups the floor AC for the sharpshooter to 11, but doesn't improve the chances of the non-sharpshooter to hit the same AC. So, there are a range of ACs for which the sharpshooter gains full benefit from additional bonuses that the non-sharpshooter does not.

Now, if you climb up into high ACs, above the floor value for the non-sharpshooter, this changes of course, because then the bonus does help the non-sharpshooter reduce their chances to miss. But, for low ACs, the effect of a buff is all for the sharpshooter/GWM and doesn't aid the non-SS/GWM at all. This is the way that the penalty can be min/maxed away.

And, at 12th, the sharpshooter can take their next ASI to DEX and even it up. Honestly, the benefit is better at lower levels where ACs remain reliably low, so the 4 - 8 level zone is a bit of a sweetspot.

 

[Corwin]

Take a level 8 archer, for instance. Assuming only one ASI, that's an 18 dex, +3 proficiency, archery style, and a +1 weapon for giggles. That's a +10 bonus to attack. This means that the floor for this character is AC 12. Let me explain a moment what I mean by floor. The floor is the AC where no bonus helps, because it's unnecessary. Since the character always misses on a 1, you take the 2 that doesn't miss, and that plus the attack bonus is AC 12.

And yet, as soon as you choose to take that -5, your floor is no longer 12. Its 7. Good luck finding enemies with an AC of 7 to shoot at.

 

[Ovinomancer]

And yet, as soon as you choose to take that -5, your floor is no longer 12. Its 7. Good luck finding enemies with an AC of 7 to shoot at.

Good grief, rtfp.

 

[Corwin]

Good grief, rtfp.

Okay, fair enough. But in my defense walls of text are boring. Doesn't change the fact that the -5 remains a factor. Often enough that "always" is a close enough descriptor.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Okay, but walls of text are boring. Doesn't change the fact that the -5 remains a factor. Often enough that "always" is a close enough descriptor.

It doesn't remain a factor, and it's not near enough to "always" to be close enough. Which you might know if you'd bothered to read the post.

 

[Corwin]

Says you. But playing math games with corner-case theoretical values doesn't help figure out what to do at a practical game.

Do you have any actual examples of how taking the -5 doesn't impact your odds?

 

[shoak1]

That's not actually true, though, because there's a floor, and that floor means that there's a window where the -5 doesn't represent an actual 5 point spread on the d20 where you miss.

Take a level 8 archer, for instance. Assuming only one ASI, that's an 18 dex, +3 proficiency, archery style, and a +1 weapon for giggles. That's a +10 bonus to attack. This means that the floor for this character is AC 12. Let me explain a moment what I mean by floor. The floor is the AC where no bonus helps, because it's unnecessary. Since the character always misses on a 1, you take the 2 that doesn't miss, and that plus the attack bonus is AC 12. No bless or extra bonus will improve the chance to hit AC 12 or lower - the miss chance, even if you roll a 4 on your bless dice and a 12 on your bard's loaned die (he's level 20, very helpful) will always be 5% -- the chance you roll a 1.

So, then, let's look at this from what this character picks for their ASI at 8th. On the one hand, you can go for a 20 DEX. That pushes the floor to AC 13. Or you can pick up Sharpshooter and your floor stays at 12. If you use the -5/+10, your floor drops to 7, which isn't interesting because only a handful of monsters have a 7 AC or worse. So, at this point, it's absolutely true that you have 6 points less spread on the d20 to hit an AC 13 (the -5 and the +1 from the loss of increased DEX). But it's -5 at AC 12, -4 at AC 11, -3 at AC 10, etc., so that doesn't hold universally -- there are ACs at which the -5 doesn't hold to a strict 5 point spread. But wait, there's more! For every point of bonus, that spread shrinks for the sharpshooter but doesn't for the DEX 20 shooter for all ACs less than 14. A 4 rolled on a bless ups the floor AC for the sharpshooter to 11, but doesn't improve the chances of the non-sharpshooter to hit the same AC. So, there are a range of ACs for which the sharpshooter gains full benefit from additional bonuses that the non-sharpshooter does not.

Now, if you climb up into high ACs, above the floor value for the non-sharpshooter, this changes of course, because then the bonus does help the non-sharpshooter reduce their chances to miss. But, for low ACs, the effect of a buff is all for the sharpshooter/GWM and doesn't aid the non-SS/GWM at all. This is the way that the penalty can be min/maxed away.

And, at 12th, the sharpshooter can take their next ASI to DEX and even it up. Honestly, the benefit is better at lower levels where ACs remain reliably low, so the 4 - 8 level zone is a bit of a sweetspot.

My analysis is specific to GWM, so your sharpshooter/archery style example is not really relevant - I am not suggesting SS is not OP, just GWM.

As for GWM, I already addressed your point when I said "In order for it to be a factor, you would have to have so many buffs that your target to hit # goes below 5 WHEN GWM is on, something that shouldn't really ever happen in a competitive game." Your level 8 guy w/GWM would likely only have +8 to hit. But the typical AC he should be facing at that level is 16 as per DMG. So unless he gets more than +6 in buffs, or fights a lot of AC9 or less monsters, or some combination thereof, he's not gonna hit the floor except rarely. Is it possible? Sure - but if it happens more than rarely your DM should be giving you better challenges.

 

[Yunru]

It doesn't remain a factor, and it's not near enough to "always" to be close enough. Which you might know if you'd bothered to read the post.

I read the post. It's always a factor as long as you don't hit on a -3 normally or only on a natural 20, otherwise it affects your accuracy. The only areas which the -5 isn't a full -5 is when you chance of hitting can't improve or worsen by a full 5. We're talking miss on a 15 or hit on a 1 (if it weren't a fumble). That's the rare event.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Says you. But playing math games with corner-case theoretical values doesn't help figure out what to do at a practical game.

Do you have any actual examples of how taking the -5 doesn't impact your odds?

Yes, in the post. The one you apparently still haven't read because that question is directly answered, and it's not a corner case.